‘The more people you know, the more stuff you get done. It’s as simple as that.’
But reaching out is an art: targeting the right people, approaching them in the right way, getting over yourself in the first place. In Reach Out, Molly Beck shares her simple, brilliant system for creating a network of connections that will turbo-charge your professional growth.
Molly is a master of social media, and reveals how blogging and podcasting enable authors to build the readership for their book long before the book itself is published. She’s also helpfully honest about what a slog the writing process can be if, like her, you’re ‘not a natural writer’, and has some great tips for getting through it!
If you’re thinking of starting a podcast, this will be invaluable: Molly is the founder of Messy.fm, ‘the WordPress of podcasting’, and explains why podcasting is so powerful and how to get started.
LINKS:
Reach Out at Blackwell’s (cheaper than Amazon at time of writing!)
Molly on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MsMollyBeck
Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky
The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/
Sign up for the newsletter, including a review of what I’m reading now and a weekly writing prompt: https://www.getdrip.com/forms/887338035/submissions/new
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Alison Jones: Hello and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club. It’s an absolute joy to be here today with Molly Beck who is a digital marketing expert. She’s the founder of podcast creation site Messy FM, the voice behind lifestyle blog smartprettyandawkward.com, and also the author of Reach Out: The Simple Strategy You Need To Know To Expand Your Network and Increase Your Influence. Welcome to the show, Molly.
Molly Beck: Awesome. I am so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me on.
Alison Jones: You’re very welcome. It’s always nerve-racking though when you have somebody who really knows podcasting on the podcast. I’m always a bit like, ooh, they’re going to spot my rooky errors…
Molly Beck: Not at all. You’ve been doing great. I’ve been loving it. In our pre-call conversations, I was like, wow, she really knows what she’s doing. So far, you are batting A+.
Alison Jones: Oh, excellent, so it can only go downhill from here. Excellent. Good. It’s quite a range of stuff that you do, isn’t it? It’s everything digital-related, marketing stuff, platform stuff. Just give us a little background. How did this all come about? Where is it going?
Molly Beck: Oh, wow. So many… You know, these are the questions I’m wrestling with all the time. Where is it going?
Alison Jones: I’d just like you to just expose your strategy in public if you don’t mind. Just make it up on the hoof.
Molly Beck: It all started for me back in college. I was a finance major. I had plans to go into investment banking. I got the coveted investment banking internship in my senior year. Then, while I was at Goldman, the markets crashed, and that plan went away. I decided to start a blog as a way to be able to brand myself. I had some big idea that maybe I’d be able to get a job in marketing, and having a blog would be helpful. This is 2008, 2009. There’s virtually no social media. I didn’t know anyone who had a blog. It was a different time back then, so I started the blog and the plan sort of worked. I was able to, even though my whole undergraduate resume and my major was finance, I was able to segue it into marketing roles and lived in New York City and just spent about eight or nine years climbing the ladder in marketing roles. Places like Book of the Month Club, Hearst, Venmo, Forbes, up that ladder.
Also, at the same time that I had this day job I was working on, I kept writing on the side, so I kept up with the blog. I kept doing guests posts and columns for other sites and a couple column series for other publications. Those activities led me to get an agent. From the agent, we shopped some different book ideas and thought that the book dream might not be happening for me. It didn’t seem to be going anywhere. Then, one day, when I was working at Forbes, I wrote a column for their one of their column series on mentoring. That column went viral, and that led both to the book deal. Then, also, while I was working at Forbes, I saw the need to create a podcast creation site. That’s what I was doing at Forbes, I was running the Forbes podcast.
I started thinking, where is the WordPress for podcasts? That’s how I started to create Messy. These days, I spend my time talking about the book, which came out this past Fall, and then really focusing on growing Messy FM to be the WordPress of podcasts.
Alison Jones: That’s awesome. It’s such a brilliant master class in emergent strategy, isn’t it? It’s a master class in going out there, doing some stuff, seeing what sticks and then running with it.
Molly Beck: You know what? That is so true, and the story is already disjointed as I tell it because there’s lots of moving parts, but there are so many things that I did that aren’t in that one paragraph bio that never went anywhere.
Alison Jones: That’s the tidy version.
Molly Beck: Yes, exactly, so let’s be really clear about that. We’re still trying to figure out how it all fits together.
Alison Jones: That’s brilliant. Actually, we should mention, Smart, Pretty and Awkward is such a great title for a blog, and it’s so neat the way that … I mean they’re very short pieces, but you just take that as the structure each time, don’t you?
Molly Beck: Absolutely.
Alison Jones: It’s amazing.
Molly Beck: You’re exactly right. The blog is Smart, Pretty and Awkward. Every post is three pieces of advice. How to be smarter, how to be prettier, how to be less awkward. If I was to choose one thread throughout my career, it would be that I always work on properties that tend to give people very tangible or specific pieces of advice that can help them take their next step forward.
Alison Jones: Yes, brilliant. Of course, that works commercially as well. I mean you’ve got a great model there because you’re not monetizing … You can’t monetize blogs directly. Nobody’s going to pay to read your blog, but you’ve got that lovely affiliate model going on in there, so you can actually monetize that quite directly as well. That’s just incredible.
Molly Beck: Absolutely. I mean the best way I’ve ever monetized the blog was having the book because I believe the book mostly only exists because the blog, in a roundabout way, got me there.
Alison Jones: Yes. That’s a more indirect way, but it’s really smart. It’s smart and really pretty and not at all awkward. Excellent. Let’s talk about podcasting, which obviously is the thing that we both care passionately about. Why is podcasting so great? Okay, you’re not selling it to me. You’re selling it to people out there that are going to do a podcast because it’s just the best. Why is it great, and what … I mean obviously, you talked a little bit about what led you to create Messy FM, but how is that working? What’s it like working with people who are just setting up podcasts?
Molly Beck: Yes. Well, you know, when I think about podcasting, I really think that it will mimic blogging and that the people that start podcasting, now I think we’re at the bottom of the curve that’s about to really explode. The people that get in now, start shows now, will be the ones in two to four years that have the biggest audiences. We saw that in blogging. I was a beneficiary of that. I think Smart, Pretty, Awkward is a cute concept, but I’m fairly confident that if I started it today, it would not have had the reach or the impact it did. It was the timing that blogs were about to explode. The same thing is happening in podcasting.
I’m not sure if you want to find a way to brand yourself in 2018 that starting a blog is the way to do that. I think podcasting is. The entry point is relatively low. There are ways like with Messy FM that you can start with your computer, and that’s all you need, is your internet connection. The base level is free, and you can start really sharing ways in building up an audience that can … Having an audience, in any medium, is what’s most valuable to potential publishers, to potential partners, to potential sponsors. In 2018, I think that that audience is over the airways. It’s an audio audience.
Alison Jones: Yes, absolutely. I mean audio is just enormous now, isn’t it? It’s partly because I think of all the other voice assistance, and people are just getting more used to engaging with content, with audio content even …
Molly Beck: Totally.
Alison Jones: It’s just handier than video, isn’t it?
Molly Beck: Well, and audio is the only medium that you can consume at while you’re doing something else. So, I think one of the challenges with video is that your eyes literally have to be on the screen the entire time. Audio you can be commuting, you can be doing housework, you can be doing childcare all while you’re listening to something really interesting in your ears.
Alison Jones: Yeah, I tend to listen while I’m cooking or running. Never obviously at the same time. But yeah, those are my podcasting listening moments. And we should also say, it’s way more fun than doing a blog if you’re an extrovert, isn’t it?
Molly Beck: Absolutely, that’s another thing, is that I think, I’m sure we’ll dive in more into the book, but for me I’m not really actually a natural writer. I really labour over writing, it’s much more challenging for me than just speaking. And if I was to do a full scale interview with someone, I would prefer that it’s audio. It’s more fun, it’s more engaging and it doesn’t have that stigma of, okay, once I write these words they’re forever. On the internet without the Oxford comma, this is super embarrassing. It’s a little bit more fluid.
Alison Jones: Yes, it is. And often when I read the transcript I realize just how fluid I’ve been being.
Molly Beck: Couldn’t agree more with that one. Sometimes I’m like, did I say that?
Alison Jones: Did I say that? That is not even English as she is spoken. But if you’re hesitating, if you’re thinking, ah, maybe I should do a podcast, maybe I’ll do it next year, there’s some really flipping good reasons. It’s easy, there are tools to support you, it is fun and now is the time to do it and people are massively engaging with it. It is a great way to…
Molly Beck: Couldn’t agree more. And if someone’s listening to your podcast, then they’re already over the first hurdle, they’re listening and they’re consuming great podcasts already. They know how to work the apps, they know how to listen to it as a listener. Eventually there’s a tipping point when you consume enough awesome content, you start thinking, hey, I could do this too. I would encourage you, if you’re listening today, this is your tipping point, this is your call to do a podcast. Come on in, join it. It’s gonna be a different thing if you wait five years.
Alison Jones: Yeah, absolutely, do it, do it, do it. And also people think they need fancy equipment and mics and stuff. I remember somebody saying to about episode 19 or something, ‘The audio quality is really good, what kit are you using?’ I’m like, ‘Yeah, that would be my MacBook mic that I’m using.’ You really do not need super kit.
Molly Beck: No. You can absolutely use like a MacBook mic. I say at Messy FM, use your desktop microphone. You literally need nothing except a computer with internet access and those types of really easy entry points into podcasting are only going to get more common. You don’t need that sound studio locked away. You can have it if you want it, but you don’t need it.
Alison Jones: Right. When you get into it, it’s really nice. I’ve got my Rode mic in front of me, it’s lovely. I’m not using it right now… actually, that’s just terrible, I should be using it now, but I use it with my intros and outros. That needs to change. Let’s move swiftly onto the book.
Molly Beck: Great.
Alison Jones: I was going to ask you actually, ’cause you’ve got such a diverse range of interesting experience, I was like, what made you hone in on the networking? But now I get it, that was the article that went viral. So, again, really interesting emergent stuff. But let’s just talk a little about networking and reaching out. Why does it matter so much in a digital age particularly? And what’s really distinctive about the Reach Out approach?
Molly Beck: The book is about something that I’ve been doing since 2011, 2012, which is every morning at 9:00 a.m. I send an email to someone that I don’t know well or I don’t know at all and that strategy over six, seven years now has completely changed my life. It’s allowed me to meet many, many more people. It’s allowed me to be involved in interesting projects. It’s allowed me to change jobs in some cases. Meet mentors, meet mentees, and the book is really about how to do that for your own life. There’s tons of templates, there’s tons of numbers and the science behind how to network online.
And the goal of the book is that all you need, I come back to this phrase, all you need is a computer with internet access. It doesn’t matter if you live in a small town. It doesn’t matter if you work in a industry where you don’t know anywhere else. In this day and age we have the internet and it’s easy to connect with other people in ways that are genuine and make ends for both parties. And can really change your life in a super fun way and that’s really what the book is about. Is it’s a very practical guide book to expanding your network through the internet.
Alison Jones: And really purposefully as well. I love that you have walked that talk. You can’t imagine that working on any other medium other than the email. So, it’s quite, well maybe social media, but it’s quite un-intrusive and yet personal.
Molly Beck: Yeah, absolutely. And I think people often think networking either means two things. One, it means going to a cocktail party handing out your business cards. It feels super awkward, you’re sweating like, I hate those scenarios myself, there’s nothing that’s more nerve-racking to me than walking into a party realizing I don’t know anyone and realizing I’m there to, quote unquote, network. And then the second thing-
Alison Jones: We’re back with Morra aren’t we? Our mutual friend Morra who’s hiding in the bathroom…
Molly Beck: I couldn’t recommend Morra’s book enough, Hiding in the Bathroom. That really goes deep into that psychology and ways to hack that. And then the other way besides that networking be your cocktail party event is also people think if you’re networking online, you’re just spamming famous people. Sending mass emails to people hoping for a response. I couldn’t caution you enough that, that is not the approach that works. The approach that works is to think about who you used to know well, who you’ve met recently in passing or who’s a friend of a friend that you can reach out to. And those three categories, well I have tons of data behind that, but those will yield so much more responses than randomly spamming famous people hoping for responses.
Alison Jones: Absolutely. And I love the way you’ve got that taxonomy of Reach Outs. When you create a taxonomy, a model like that, it makes you feel as a reader like you’ve got a handle on this thing and you’re taking it systematically and the author’s done that thinking for you. And you trust them because of it. So, it’s very powerful.
Molly Beck: Yeah, the book is for people that are like, man, I really need to know more people, but, man, does that sound super stressful. It’s like a fun, quippy, easy to read book, but tons of templates that you can just literally take the template, plug in your information and send it off. And then I tell you the rough response rates that you can be expecting.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. And I love the RE-RO, there is really cool language in there. For the RE-RO, the re-reaching out. And of course, it’s worth saying, I don’t know we’re sounding like some sort of advert for podcasting here, but if you have a podcast, if you’re writing a book, both of those are brilliant reasons to reach out to people. And it gives a much more interesting offer in your email rather than just an ask.
Molly Beck: Could not agree with you more. One of the biggest reasons that I think it’s helpful to start projects online, especially projects and above other people, is that it gives you a ,quote unquote, excuse to reach out to someone else. If you don’t want to go the podcasting road and you wanted to write a column for a publication or you want to do a white paper and you want to get some expert sources, everybody, no matter who you are, is flattered to be asked to be interviewed, to share their expertise. And it gives you a way to have a really genuine connection with them. Look at you and I. You and I would not have met if you weren’t doing a podcast where you’re interviewing business authors and now we’re in touch forever. We’re having a great conversation. Six months from now I might be like, ‘Hey, I know someone that you should have on your podcast,’ or you might know someone that’s a fit for something I’m doing. And we’ve just created this really genuine connection because you had a platform you can invite me on and share.
Alison Jones: Yes. And you’d written the book that made me want to have you on. And also Morra of course was… that connection to Morra was that she recommended you onto the podcast, so that’s lovely kind of connection, friend of a friend. One day we will be doing a RE-RO where we’ll get back in touch. I love it.
Molly Beck: Exactly and that also strengthens my relationship with our mutual friend after we’ve done recording this podcast, I will send Morra an email and thank her for connecting me. When the podcast comes out, I’ll say, ‘Hey, we…’ it’s very meta, but I’ll say, ‘Hey, we talked about you in the podcast, here’s the link to it.’ Like that’s just a way for all of us to strengthen our relationships with each other.
Alison Jones: Yes, brilliant. And both you and I have got kids in the background downstairs. They’re doing their stuff. We can do this from home with our messy bun, which I know was your original name for Messy, and that’s the joy of it.
Molly Beck: Yeah, exactly.
Alison Jones: Networking and making it work for you.
Molly Beck: Absolutely. I think a very rare person that has the time or interest to go to physical events, maybe they’ll live in a city where that happens, maybe they have commitments after work. Also if you go to those events, unless the room is so curated, you’re really at the whim of who else shows up. So, if you wanted a very specific person to be your mentor and that type of person is not in the room, you’re out of luck. But if you listen to someone’s podcast or you follow them online or you see them on LinkedIn and they have the exact skills that would be so valuable to you or vice versa… Reaching out to them directly cuts through all of that. And it’s free.
Alison Jones: Yeah, brilliant, love it. Let’s talk about writing for a minute. What does writing look like for you? Do you have like a routine? What tricks and tips have you discovered that work to get you started and keep you going? And are there any tools and systems that you use?
Molly Beck: Yeah, it’s a good question. I don’t think I’m a natural writer. Writing is hard for me. I don’t have a great attention span and so, I write in very short bursts. Ten, twenty minutes repeatedly over and over again. I’m a massive editor, so, after I write something I tend to go back three, four, five, six times to rewrite it before I even send it off to someone to give their first round of edits. And I think that, that’s okay. I have a couple of friends that are also writers and they’re much more traditional writers where if they feel like if they don’t write then something inside them is just … It has to come out and writing is the way they express themselves.
I think it’s also perfectly fine. I’ve written a book and I wouldn’t call myself a natural writer. I mostly write because I like being able to say, oh yeah, I have this resource for you. I’m mostly writing because I feel like that the idea could potentially be helpful to someone else, not because I have this story bubbling up beside me. And I think that there’s room for both types of writers in the world. The natural writers and the ones that more like the process of having written rather than writing.
Alison Jones: So true, isn’t it.
Molly Beck: Yeah.
Alison Jones: I’m not mad keen on the whole writing thing, but the having written I love. I love having written a book. But also I think there’s a lot of value in that, because if somebody is compelled to tell their story or compelled to write a fiction book because they’ve got something bubbling inside them, that’s great for them. But I think there’s also room, and I would argue, a really good space for the people who are thinking about the reader and coming from a place of service and thinking actually what do these people need. And what questions are people asking me and how can I put this in a book so that more people can get the answers.
Molly Beck: Right, I mean, but how am I describing this so it doesn’t seem scary or overwhelming? And am I using jargon that someone that doesn’t live in New York or doesn’t live in this media landscape, would they understand it? Is it at an accessible level? Is it fun to read? Are there jokes? Are there easy things you can copy paste around? Those are the thoughts that come through my head more than maybe more loftier goals.
Alison Jones: No, I think that’s good. I’m a big fan of that pragmatic approach to writing, that’s brilliant. And if there’s somebody listening to this who’s a first time author and just desperate to be where you are now and just talking about what it was like to write their book rather than actually writing the damn thing, what would be your one best tip for them?
Molly Beck: I think I would say if you already have … I guess there are two things. One, I think it’s almost impossible to sell a book well, whether that’s through a publisher or self publishing unless you have an already existing audience. So, if you know if from three years from now you want to have a book, the time to spend now is spend the next two years building up an audience that is passionate about the subject that you want to write your book about. So, start creating content about that topic online and then two years from now spend the next year writing the book. And three years from now you’ll have a book. Because you’ll have an audience and you’ll have written it.
But I would also say, if you already have that audience and you just think you want to write a book … I’m so biased because this is what worked for me, but I do think a lot of it is seeing what readers are responding to. I mean I had shopped so many book proposals, gotten so many rejections about different topic ideas, that either my agents didn’t like it or publishers didn’t like it or it didn’t really seem that it would resonate with potential readers when I ran it by them. And then this random guest post that I wrote, one of hundreds of guest posts that I have written over the years, that’s what people responded to and that’s what went viral and that’s what the book ended up being about. It’s a subject I’m passionate about, I’ve been doing it myself, but I don’t think I would’ve necessarily picked that out of everything I could write about. So, the more content you consume, the more you can see what people are responding to.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. And if you spend those first two years, as you say, building up that platform, that when you get the chance to pivot, isn’t it? That’s when you get the chance to see what works and what lands. Yeah brilliant.
Molly Beck: And also your voice also comes out. I think when you first start writing it’s hard to know what your voice is. But if you just start always writing or sharing ideas, your voice naturally comes out over time, which is very helpful to you as a creator.
Alison Jones: And you’re building your writing muscles, aren’t you? You’re building up the stamina that you need to sit down and write the full form book, which isn’t a trivial task.
Molly Beck: No, it’s not. The tears that I sat at my kitchen table working on it would tell it was not a trivial task.
Alison Jones: But it’s important that remembering that, reminding people about that. Because otherwise when you’re writing your book and it’s feeling hard, you feel like some sort of failure. You feel like everybody else managed this, why can’t I? It flipping is hard work and not many people do it and that’s why it’s a big deal.
Molly Beck: And the other thing is, at least for me, I had another job when I was doing it. I was so grateful for the book deal and I was so excited for my publishers and all of that expense. But I think unless you’re super famous already, writing a book, the hours that you devote to it is not a well paying endeavour. So, I also had to do things that were bringing in revenue as that was happening. So, this fantasy of going off to live in the woods while you’re writing a book just really … First of all, I hate nature, so that wouldn’t have been a fit for me, but also-
Alison Jones: That was never gonna work.
Molly Beck: Yeah, that was never gonna work, but also you have to do other things. You have to balance it into your life. I hope that’s not too negative. I’m just trying to be realistic about, it’s totally fine, you can write a book while you’re doing many other things. You don’t have to make it your sole focus.
Alison Jones: I love that ten minute thing actually. There’s a group, a friend of mine is an admin in it, called ten minute novelists. And that took that whole approach. That actually when you’re busy, you can’t-
Molly Beck: I love that idea.
Alison Jones: It’s fab, isn’t it. Yeah, it’s Katharine Grubb is the person who runs it.
Molly Beck: That is awesome.
Alison Jones: And it’s all kind of … This is how she wrote her books. She has kids, she has quite a lot of kids I think, and she would just do ten minutes, literally ten minutes with a cup of tea and she’d blast a bit more down and yeah, she wrote a whole book, brilliant.
Molly Beck: I couldn’t love that more. I’m going to go to search out that group after this. I love that idea.
Alison Jones: Say I sent you.
Molly Beck: I will, I will.
Alison Jones: I always invite people to recommend a business book, so, what business book do you recommend that you think everybody listening to this podcast should go and read right now? Apart obviously from Reach Out, apart from that, which other one?
Molly Beck: Well, we already talked about it, but I really loved Hiding in the bathroom by Morra Aarons-Mele. I thought that was an amazing book. It’s actually a good complement to Reach out. The idea of how to expand your network in ways that feel genuine to who you are. Morra’s book is a little bit bigger and it also talks about work life and how to make it work for you. But I really loved her book, I read it like three or four times. And then the other book that I-
Alison Jones: It’s superb, I would second that.
Molly Beck: Oh, yeah she’s such a great writer. She has a writing style that I wish I had, which is like very informative but also very fun and interesting to read, she’s great. So, that was an awesome book. And then the other book that I’m reading right now that I’m really enjoying, I just finished it, is called Off the Clock by Laura Vanderkam. And it’s about how to use your time in ways that feel productive and also meaningful. And Laura has written a ton of books. I also loved her book, What the most successful people do before breakfast. She’s written a bunch of different books, but I really like her latest one. And it actually convinced me to start tracking my time.
So I’m on day three of tracking my time for a week ’cause I have been very interested in: Where is my time going? Am I making good use of it? How could I do better? What are the stories I’m telling myself about the time that is not accurate? And so, it was a very helpful book in spring boarding me to think more holistically about using time well.
Alison Jones: That’s a superb recommendation. I don’t know the book, so I’m going to go away and find it. But I have to say-
Molly Beck: Yes, Off the Clock.
Alison Jones: Off the Clock. The thought of tracking my time does not make me feel good, it makes me feel very nervous-
Molly Beck: No, it’s so fun. I recruited my two best friends to do it with me. So, we’re all tracking our time for the week and it’s been so interesting so far. Laura has some templates that you can download that’s really easy. I would really encourage you to do it. I wish I had done it earlier.
Alison Jones: You see, it’s not that I don’t think it would be useful, it’s that I think it would reveal hideous things that’s the problem. Which is probably why I need to do it…
Molly Beck: I will say that the category of ‘puttering’ takes up a lot more time in my life than I thought it would.
Alison Jones: Yes, my husband would call it ‘faffing’, but it’s very much the same thing.
Molly Beck: Exactly.
Alison Jones: And I always ask guests as well. Is there somebody that you would recommend as a good guest for the future on the Extraordinary Business Book Club?
Molly Beck: If you haven’t had Laura, I would recommend her. Another person that I really follow that I think has a really interesting writing style is Rachel Hollis. She writes books, she’s a CEO of a media company, and she writes books about being a parent and an entrepreneur and pushing back some of the things that you maybe thought about yourself that’s not true. Her latest book is called, Girl Wash Your Face. And I would recommend, I know you already had Morra, but I think Laura or Rachel Hollis would be great future guests for you.
Alison Jones: And I don’t know either of them. It’s great when people recommend people I don’t know. I love that. Thank you so much.
Molly Beck: You’re welcome.
Alison Jones: Molly, It’s been such a pleasure talking to you. I genuinely … We could just do this all day, but we’re going to have to stop. If people want to find out more about you and about the billions of things that you do – this is going to be a long, long list on the show notes folks – take a deep breath and tell us where they should go.
Molly Beck: Sure, well, if someone is interested in buying the book, the book is called Reach Out by Molly Beck, it’s available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target and wherever books are sold. The reviews have been very positive for the book so far. People tend to think it’s a helpful, fun book to read. So, I’d encourage your listeners to check that out. If someone is interested in creating a podcast, they can go to Messy.FM. They can start today and our base level is a 100 per cent free. And then if someone wants to follow me, I’m Ms Molly Beck, Ms Molly Beck on also show platforms and you’re always welcome to send me an email. My address is Molly@Messy.FM and I always look forward to hearing from people that are interested in reaching out.
Alison Jones: Brilliant, I shall put all those links up in the show notes at Extraordinary Business Books.com if anybody is cooking or running all the things that people do when they’re listening to podcasts and they can’t write them down. But it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you Molly. Thank you so much for your time today.