Episode 127 – Leading Through Uncertainty with Jude Jennison

Jude JennisonHorses don’t care what your job title is. They’re not impressed by the car you drive. The only way a horse will follow you is if it trusts you. And it will trust you only if you’re leading authentically.

Jude Jennison discovered the astonishing power of horses to transform people’s approach to leadership when she faced her own fear of horses – now she has a herd of five, and I met them all at her book launch.

But how do you write about something that can only be experienced? And how do you draw out stories of uncertainty and leadership from others? Find out how Jude approached the challenge in this week’s episode, and why her launch was like no other.


Jude’s site (includes link to podcast): https://www.judejennison.com/

Jude on Twitter: https://twitter.com/judejennison

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

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Apply to join the This Book Means Business mentorship programme (begins September): https://alisonjones.lpages.co/this-book-means-business-mentorship/

The Extraordinary Business Book Club summer reading list: https://alisonjones.com/the-extraordinary-business-book-club-summer-reading-list/

Alison Jones:                        Hello and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club, and this is really cool: I’m here today with Jude Jennison, who helps executives and senior leadership teams achieve their strategic imperatives through team alignment, combining leadership with horses, team coaching, executive coaching and facilitation. Jude is a thought leader, international Speaker, author and horse assisted educator with a 16 year senior leadership career in IBM, where she led UK, European and global teams, and she’s also the author of Leading Through Uncertainty, which was published back in May with Practical Inspiration Publishing, and possibly the best launch I’ve ever, ever been to. Welcome to the show, Jude.

Jude Jennison:                    Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Alison Jones:                        It’s really, really good to have you. Now. We’ve talked so much about this, but I’m really, really excited because I always know when I talk to somebody I know really well I always discovering stuff that I don’t know about them. It’s one of the best reasons to do it. So first, just give us a little bit of background about how you got from a tech leadership role in IBM to working with horses, because this is not what you call a standard career move, is it?

Jude Jennison:                    Well, no, it’s anything but, and so I left my career in IBM – and when you say tech leadership, it was leadership in a tech company. I wouldn’t ever go so far as to say that I have any technical bias or understanding whatsoever. And I suppose what I always did in IBM was, I was often given roles that nobody else wanted. So I became quite adept at leading things that I had no knowledge or understanding of, which I suppose is the obvious link then to horses. Because when I left IBM I set up a leadership and coaching business, and I was terrified of horses. And I thought I don’t want to be frightened of anything, so I’ll just overcome my fear of them and then that will be done and off we go. Carry on with a normal life.

Except that when I overcame my fear of horses, I discovered a way of working with them that was just getting such profound shifts in me in a couple of hours. But then I saw it getting profound shifts in other people, so I trained in the work that I call leadership with horses, and then clients kept coming. And so I got a horse, and a second, and a third, and now I have five.

Alison Jones:                        And I met them all at the launch, which we’ll talk about in a minute. But just tell us a little bit more, because I have now experienced this and I get it. But tell us why working with horses is so powerful for leadership teams? Because I can imagine there’s a few eyebrows raised when the CEO says, “We’re going to go off and we’re going to work with some horses today,” you know, for the board.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah. I mean at least 50% of people that walked through my gate are quite blatantly obvious, they’ll say, “You know, I’m really sceptical,” or, “I don’t want to be here,” or, “I don’t see the point of it.” So I get that it’s difficult to understand, and that’s largely because it’s a very experiential experience, you learn through the experience of working with the horses. And the reason why I work with horses, is they respond based on your nonverbal communication, and often people think that’s body language, but it’s so much more than that. It’s what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling, what your intentions are. So something as simple as if you … If let’s say you’re frightened, for example, of horses, as lots of people are, as long as you’re honest about it and you say, “I’m feeling scared,” to the horse, “come with me.” They will.

As long as you’re still clear about what you want from them, they don’t mind if you’re frightened of them. But if you’re incongruent, so if you pretend to be overconfident and you go, “No, I’m not frightened,” and off you go, the horse will pick up on the mixed message, and refuse to move. So the feedback is just really clear. They’re either coming or they’re not.

Alison Jones:                        And it’s actually exactly like people, but people are too good at covering it up, aren’t they? So what you learn with the horse is about leading people.

Jude Jennison:                    Absolutely. And people are also polite, because if your boss tells you to do something you might not want to do it, and sometimes you might put up a bit of a discussion about it, but the buck stops with what the boss really wants. So if the boss says we’re doing it, people will go along with it because they think they have to. Whereas the horses don’t have to.

Alison Jones:                        Yes.

Jude Jennison:                    So it becomes very clear at what point you’re leading, and influencing, and bringing people with you through free will, versus when you’re bringing them through coercion or force. And I’m always looking at … You know, the leaders I work with are typically senior leaders and execs, so they’re outstanding leaders in their own right, and I’m looking at, how do you fine tune? And that’s why the horses are so brilliant because they can uncover those subtle nuances of changes in our behaviour, or tiny bit of, I don’t quite believe it, or I don’t trust it, or whatever’s going on for us.

Alison Jones:                        Yes, and they’re so completely unimpressed by your job title, aren’t they?

Jude Jennison:                    Oh completely, and whatever car you drive, or …

Alison Jones:                        Exactly. All the things that we use as cues. Yes. Fantastic. Now, I talked a little bit about the launch before, the launch back in May was quite literally … and I’ve been to a lot of book launches, but this has got to be one of the most unforgettable. Rather than me going about it, could you just tell us about your book launch? What did you do? How did it go? And did it achieve what you’d hoped?

Jude Jennison:                    Oh, well, yes. Do you know, you could probably be more enthusiastic about it than me because for me it’s what I do. But the reason why it was unusual was because I took my herd of five horses to a local equine centre, which is a seated arena. It’s a full, almost Olympic-sized arena with seating theatre style, and I did … Obviously I was interviewed about the book, but I also did a demo with the horses. So it got people out of the audience to work with the horses, to really see what happens when we invite the horses with us. How does the work actually work? So we had individuals working, and you actually joined the team, didn’t you?

Alison Jones:                        I did, too right. I wasn’t going to pass up that opportunity, yes.

Jude Jennison:                    And the other question is, well what did it … Did it achieve what I hoped it would? And you know, for me the book launch was really all about celebrating the achievement of writing a book, because the actual writing is quite solitary, but the … You know, everything that goes around the book in terms of what I’ve learned to be able to put in the book has come from working with my clients, and working with my horses. And then obviously working with you to publish the book, and your team. There were a lot of people that were involved, so for me the book launch was primarily about celebrating how far we’d all come, actually, in the process. I just happened to be the one that put the words to the book, but I was writing my knowledge, but also things that I’d learned by observing and witnessing other people.

So it was a celebration primarily, but also it was an opportunity to say, “Well, don’t just take my word for it, come and see it. Come …” Because what I was writing about, and the challenge I always have with writing my books, and this is my second, is that I’m writing about a physically embodied experience. So it’s a bit like trying to write about, how do you find your balance on a bike? It’s something that we sit on the bike and we find it, but actually we don’t really have the language for it. And I think leadership at its best is like that. It’s where we feel completely in flow and in balance, and it feels effortless. And for me I was writing about, well, when it’s not effortless and it’s awkward and clunky, how do you get back to that place of being in flow and it being effortless again?

And because it is so personal and embodied, it’s really difficult to write about it. So I’ve attempted it twice and my first book was well received, the second book is being well received as well. So I wanted people to experience it as well. So that was why I did that. So in that respect, absolutely. You know, there were lots of people in the audience who were family friends, colleagues, but also lots of new people too.

Alison Jones:                        Yes. And it’s brilliant because you’re right, it’s such a celebration. You know, bringing a book into the world is not trivial. It’s a really big thing, and I think it’s really sad not to mark that with a party frankly, because you know, any excuse … But what it also illustrates, I think, if anybody’s listening is, your book launch doesn’t have to be a staid event in a bookshop with a reading from the book. You know, that’s absolutely fine, there’s nothing wrong with that. But actually if your book has an experience behind it, or a theme or something, then you know putting … giving people a real experience for your book launch is a really exciting thing to do. And be a bit more imaginative and brave maybe when you think about that, because it really was fabulous.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah. I think so because I think otherwise it can be … I mean somebody was saying to me that they’d been to a book signing in London and they’d literally turned up, the author had signed a book and they’d gone home, and if you’re travelling from outside of London into London, and that’s all you get, then frankly, I’d be a bit disappointed. Unless it’s some super superstar.

Alison Jones:                        Yes. Unless you can get an autograph and then you feel happy. But yeah, no, I agree. You want an experience. But it’s also… for you as the author it’s such a good chance to connect with the people who are going to be shouting about your book, the people who are going to be your best supporters, and yes, develop businesses as well. Brilliant. Is there anything that you would do differently looking back on the launch?

Jude Jennison:                    Oh, I don’t know. Well, I always liked to do things differently so probably.

Alison Jones:                        You’d never do it the same way twice, would you?

Jude Jennison:                    I think you’ll have to wait for my next book.

Alison Jones:                        Brilliant.

Jude Jennison:                    I think I know what the book title is, and once I’ve written the book it will become clear as to whether it’s something similar or whether it’s different. But for me, part of … My book is called Leading Through Uncertainty, and I’ve never travelled with my horses before. So actually for me to move five horses in transport, up the road, and then do a live demo with them in front of 80 people was a huge deal for me. And so I was embodying leading through uncertainty as well. So that’s why I say wait for my next book, because when we know what the title of that is, you can guarantee that I’ll be living and breathing it at the book launch.

Alison Jones:                        And I just smiled to myself when you said, “I took the horses up the road.” I just thought yes, it wasn’t quite that simple, was it?

Jude Jennison:                    When you work with horses it never is, but actually I don’t think it is with people. I think sometimes we have these ideas of what we might like to achieve in business and, and it often isn’t that simple. There’s often quite a lot of complex planning that goes behind things, and the whole point of the book and the ideas behind Leading Through Uncertainty were, when things don’t go according to plan you’ve only actually got your leadership left. So, what do you do in those moments when the plan is ripped up and abandoned? You still have … We still had an event. So, that was the idea and is the idea behind the book.

Alison Jones:                        Yes. And at that point it’s your connection with the people, and that authenticity, that’s the only thing that’s going to sway them, isn’t it?

Jude Jennison:                    Yes.

Alison Jones:                        Brilliant. So let’s move on to the writing of the book, just tell us about that process. What surprised you about the process of writing this book? I know it is your second, what did you learn this time around?

Jude Jennison:                    Well, I had a much clearer structure. My first book I just wrote from the heart and then cobbled it together, and I don’t want to dumb it down because people love it. But I cobbled a whole bunch of … You know, I had 100,000 words that I dropped down to 70,000, and turned into a structure. With this one I wrote to a structure. So I developed the structure up front. I had a clear table of contents, I had a clear vision of what I wanted the book to achieve. You know, I’d obviously worked with you on your Mastermind Programme to do all of that as well. And that in some ways made it easier, in some ways made it harder, because when I was writing … Well, when I was writing from the heart, it was just I could write whatever I wanted, so it flowed. Whereas when I was writing to a structure, there was a sense of, “Oh, I need to get this right.”

So, I had to find a way to find that middle ground, which is, I’m still writing from the heart and it is to a structure. And so that took some time and there were moments where sometimes it was a bit more difficult than others. And you know, I think I had at one point a week before the deadline, I had three weeks where I never wrote a word because nothing was coming. And my way of writing is if it’s not flowing, you just don’t force it. I know other people say that you sit at the desk and you keep writing rubbish until you write something decent. That’s very different from my approach. My approach is if it’s coming in, it’s flowing, I write. And if it’s not, I let it go.

Alison Jones:                        And it’s very much about learning for you, isn’t it?

Jude Jennison:                    Oh absolutely. And I think that changes depending on where we’re at in our lives, and what else is going on around us.

Alison Jones:                        And what does it … What do you actually do when you write? You know, what does it look like? Do you have … Is it a routine or is it just, “Uh no, I now need to go and write.” Where do you go to write?

Jude Jennison:                    So, it is a routine. So, with my first book, I realised because I’ve got five horses, I … a lot of my time is taken up running a business and looking after five horses. And somebody said to me, “Well, you need to set aside a specific time.” So with my first book, I decided that instead of getting up at half seven every day, I would get up at 6:00 and I would write for the first hour and a half of the day. And my first book I wrote in six weeks doing that.

Alison Jones:                        Wow.

Jude Jennison:                    And the editing then took a lot longer because I hadn’t written to a structure. And so I decided that was a model that worked really well for me first time round, so I did exactly the same thing second time round, and so … and I still get up at 6:00 now. So the difference is that I’ve realised that between 6:00 and 8:00 in the morning the house is quiet, I’m really creative. I’m the kind of person that the second the alarm goes off, I want to get out of bed singing. So instead of singing, which would drive my husband crazy, I get up and I write quietly. So my routine is I get up, I feed the cat and the dog, and then I sit with my breakfast with a laptop on my knee, sat on the sofa in the kitchen, and I write. And I write and I write, and I write until either I dry up, or I have to go out to do something else. So, typically, I would write for two hours every morning until it was done.

Alison Jones:                        That’s fantastic. I mean I love writing in the morning as well, but I’ve got to get the kids up, and all this and the other, but I usually manage to get sort of half an hour or so. But I think there’s something about that morning time. It’s just not like any other time of the day, is it? It’s a sort of sacred time almost. It’s just before the day starts.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah, it’s so quiet, and I think both … actually both books I’ve started writing in at the beginning of July, so I’ve written in the summer. I’ve been able to throw open the doors onto the garden, and the sun has been coming through, and I don’t hear my neighbours get up until about half past seven. So, that first hour and a half is really quiet, and there’s just that … I love that moment where … In the winter, I love the moment where the sun’s coming up. So, I do actually feel a bit cheated in the summer when I get up after the sun.

Alison Jones:                        Maybe you should just get up at 3:00 or half-three in the summer, what do you think?

Jude Jennison:                    Well, you know, I’ve been very tempted a few times.

Alison Jones:                        I love that. My podcast ritual is generally to do it on a Saturday morning before the rest of the house wakes up, and you’re right, there’s a real pleasure in it. Just being on your own in a quiet house, doing something that you love, and something that’s creative and interesting, and there is a real joy in it, isn’t it? And I think people who aren’t morning people will probably never get that.

Jude Jennison:                    No. Well maybe not. But I think, yes, I mean I’ve always been a morning person but I’ve never got up at 6:00, and it always used to be a struggle. But once I got into the routine of knowing that actually I was doing something creative rather than something that was using the left logical side of the brain, I found it actually a lot easier.

Alison Jones:                        Yes. You’re supposed to be closer to your subconscious first thing in the morning, aren’t you? Before you kind of strap on your protection, your kind of cognitive protection for the day.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, that’s what it is. Okay, great. Well, I shall carry on doing it then.

Alison Jones:                        That’s the idea behind morning pages, isn’t it, as well?

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah.

Alison Jones:                        So, tapping into something really, really quite deep. And when you said before about when it’s not coming you stop, and you don’t force it: how do you know when it’s time to start again? I’m really intrigued by that, because if you aren’t sitting down to write, I think the risk for most people would be that they would carry on not sitting down to write, sort of, indefinitely.

Jude Jennison:                    Oh well, I would always sit down to write, but if it didn’t come in the first five minutes of me sitting down, then I would just do something else.

Alison Jones:                        Okay. So you just … you try it and see how it goes and if it’s there, it’s there and if it’s not, then you don’t push it.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah.

Alison Jones:                        That’s really interesting. Okay. See, I always find with morning pages, the first side and a half were pure rubbish, but I only kind of started to actually get into it halfway through. So you’d need to know that point where you’re like, “No, I’ve given it this long, it’s not coming, it’s not going to happen today.” It’s like a run as well. The first five minutes of a run are always rubbish, but then you get into it somehow.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, for me, I found that I’m either, using the running analogy, I’m either standing and I can’t seem to find a way to move a leg, or I’ve started and I’m running and that’s the way my writing is. I’m either sit down and I write something, even if it’s garbage, and then, you’re right, it turns into something. Or I sit down and absolutely nothing comes, and I can’t even write garbage and then I know that I’m not ready to write.

Alison Jones:                        And Jude, one of the things that you did when you were writing the book is start your podcast, which I think is really interesting to people as well. So just tell us a little bit about that, how it came about and how it went.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, it came about at your suggestion…

Alison Jones:                        I rather presented you with that, didn’t I? “Here’s a leading question…”

Jude Jennison:                    Well, no, but it was your suggestion because it was part of the Mastermind group of a, you know, here’s an idea. And I remember my initial thought was, “Oh crikey, that looks like a lot of work and no, it’s definitely not for me.” And in fact the other three people on the Mastermind group all said the same thing. And then I thought, “Well, I could give it a go, and if it’s too much like hard work I’ll give it up again.” And what I discovered was that going out and interviewing people, I had an absolute blast. And mostly I’ve gone out and met people physically, and because there’s something for me about … and it’s probably because of the work that I’m doing, it’s about really getting a sense of their energy, and looking them in the eyes and really understanding them.

And so I just started doing that and it’s been really, really well received, and people are loving it. And the people being interviewed are loving it, because I think what I’m inviting them to do is talk about an experience of when they’ve led through uncertainty. So, the podcast is called Leading Through Uncertainty. And I start with, what’s your experience? What’s your story? And so people tell me their story, and everybody’s got a story, whether it’s a cyber attack or a failed project, or some major disaster that happened. Everybody has a story of when things were so uncertain and all they had left was their leadership. And then I just, you know, I unpick and say, “You know, well, I’m hearing values are important to you, or trust is important,” and we go on from there. And it’s just magic. I love it so much. I’m having an absolute blast with it.

Alison Jones:                        Oh, I’m so glad. I think, you know, if you find … If podcasting is your thing it’s just, just the best fun. And it’s also such a brilliant way of getting the stories, as you say, for your book, and an understanding and getting a new insight and perspective on what you’re writing about.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah, and I think it’s done that and it’s validated. Of course once the book is now published, it’s validating some of the concepts in the book, which makes me think, “Oh crikey, that’s good. I’m not too far off the mark,” but also it’s giving me ideas for future books. I hate to tell you, but future-

Alison Jones:                        No, I’m glad to hear it.

Jude Jennison:                    …ideas for future books, but also it’s helping shape my work. It’s making my work much more … you know, there’s more rigour behind it, because it’s no longer my take on uncertainty, it’s everybody’s take on uncertainty. And everybody has a different lens that they view the world through.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, absolutely. And of course it’s extending your network in a really interesting way because you’re talking to top leaders and CEOs, aren’t you?

Jude Jennison:                    Yes. And, you know, across a whole range of sectors and whilst many of them either are my clients or whether they’re not, their network is then listening because they are interested in them, and their story, and so more people are finding me that way.

Alison Jones:                        Yes. It’s just it’s a beautiful thing. Good. I’m so glad it went so well. I’ll put the link to Leading Through Uncertainty podcast up on the show notes as well.

Jude Jennison:                    Great. Thank you.

Alison Jones:                        And if somebody is listening to this and they are struggling to find their routine, and maybe they’re not a morning person, what would your one best tip be for someone who’s listening and wanting to get to that point of finishing that first book?

Jude Jennison:                    Well, the way … Because I had … I talked about writing my first book for three years, and then in the end somebody, my photographer, John Cleary, said, “You just need to write. You need to stop talking about it and just do it.” And I realised that actually the whole time I was talking about it, I wasn’t committed, and I wasn’t focused, and I didn’t have the discipline. So for me those are the three things that enabled me to write a book, commitment first, and then the focus and the discipline to actually do it. And so with my first book, I decided on the 16th of July back in 2014 that I would publish my book by the 16th of July 2015. And once I’d made that commitment, I then realised I had to actually do it. So it was making the commitment not to write a book, but to actually have it published by a certain time.

And then when I realised that if I want it published in a year, then you need to track back, and it’s proofread by a certain date, and edited by another date, and the jacket by another. And you realise all the other things that have to go on, that I realised that I’d probably only got about three months to write it, and then three months to edit it before it was handed over to turn into a book.

Alison Jones:                        Absolutely.

Jude Jennison:                    And that then gave me the focus, and then the discipline was saying, “Okay, I’m going to make it non negotiable that I write between 6:00 and 8:00 every single day.”

Alison Jones:                        That’s a great tip.

Jude Jennison:                    And I did that every day, including my weekends. And I think, you know, for me it was … if it wasn’t at the beginning of the day, I wouldn’t do it. So, I would encourage people to start there. And, as you say, if that’s the time we’re tapping into our subconscious, that’s surely a great time to write, and I have … I think the first two or three weeks that I was getting up at 6:00 it was a struggle to start with. And then I realised that my body got into the discipline of, “We’re getting up at 6:00 and we’re going to write.” So I also had the discipline of being in bed by 9:00, so that I still had my nine hours of sleep to get there. And then suddenly I found myself waking up at half past five full of ideas, and leaping out of bed at half past five desperate to get them down on paper. So, I think once you’ve got the commitment you then get focused, and then it’s all about the discipline.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, and there’s two other things that really strike me there. Firstly, the sleep: most of us just don’t get enough of it, and actually there’s no … You know, if you can’t get up and focus in the morning, it’s probably because you just didn’t get to bed early enough the night before. So that’s a really, really good one. But that other point, which is funny, it’s week six of the boot camp, the This Book Means Business bootcamp as we’re recording this, and I’ve just given the boot campers a planner to take them forward to the next stage. And it’s very much about: These are your milestones, you have to track back. And people always, always in my experience, underestimate how long it takes from finishing the book to publishing the book. Because there’s a review process, and as you say, there’s all the production stuff, and the printing, and shipping, and once you’ve got that clear in your mind, you suddenly think, “Oh my goodness, I don’t have nearly as long as I thought.”

And that is really powerful. If you don’t understand that, then you haven’t got a sense of when you really need to finish. You haven’t got a target to aim for.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, I think that’s right. And I think once you realise that, that’s the thing that focuses your attention. You know, it certainly did for me. It was like, “Oh crikey, I’ve actually not got a year to write a book. I’ve got about three months.”

Alison Jones:                        Yeah. Yeah, big difference. Yes. It’s so useful doing that task, isn’t it? Brilliant. Jude, who do you recommend that I invite as a guest onto this show? Somebody with something interesting to say about the business of business books.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, Craig McVoy is just about to publish his book, and it’s called Beyond Brand, and I was lucky enough to see a copy, a proof copy this morning because I met him by chance, and he got his book out of the car. Beyond Brand is about how do you have … How do you create … I can’t explain it as brilliantly as he will, but how do you create an amazing experience for your customers? And so I think he’d be amazing to speak to. He’s got a big corporate background, so he’s worked in lots of big organisations in financial services, but he’s also worked in smaller and medium sized businesses. So, the stuff that he’s writing in the book fits across all sectors, and all sizes of business. And I personally can’t wait to get my hands on a copy. I was really tempted to grab the copy and run, that I saw this morning…

Alison Jones:                        Brilliant recommendation. I don’t know Craig. Right, okay, I shall get onto him and hopefully have him on the show soon. Brilliant. My next question is, what business book do you recommend everyone listening should read? So I think we’ll take it as read, that that’s one they should go on and read when it’s available, but what else do you think they should read?

Jude Jennison:                    Well, obviously mine. But I think, well, the book that most inspired me and the book that actually started me off on the path that I’m on is a book called Leadership From the Inside Out, and it’s by Kevin Cashman. And he published it about 12 years ago, but in it he talks about how leadership. Often we tend to think about leadership is, oh we’ve got to have the right strategy, and the vision, and get everybody to do what we want them to do. But he talks about leadership being an inside job. So it’s, how do we manage ourselves? How do we have the level of self awareness so that we understand who we are, and how we shape the world, and how we show up? And that was the first book that I read of its ilk that got me on the path of really starting to explore who am I as a leader, and what’s important to me?

So, his book was instrumental in the last 10 to 12 years that I’ve been developing myself, and learning about leadership, and probably is the reason why I now do the work that I do. And I was absolutely delighted that he endorsed my new book, so it was magic that it started and kind of ended with him.

Alison Jones:                        Oh, that is wonderful, isn’t it? It’s amazing how powerful books can be in your life. I was doing this challenge recently, seven books that you love, and there are so many. But thinking back to these critical points in your life and your career where you read the right book at the right time, and it shifted something in you: Isn’t it wonderful to think that your book could do that for someone else?

Jude Jennison:                    Oh yeah. And it is, because I’ve had people with … Certainly with my first book, I had lots of people who’ve said, “I read your book and it’s completely changed my life,” but I’ve also already had it with my new book. In fact, within a week of the book launch, Somebody said, “Oh my goodness, your book has completely changed my life. Everything I’m reading is helping me make sense of where I’m at right now.”

Alison Jones:                        Oh, that’s brilliant. And, of course, I forwarded an email to you the other day, didn’t I? One of my ex colleagues at Macmillan out in Australia was connected with … Oh no, I’m going to get it wrong, Equine Assisted Leadership, is that the right phrase?

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah. And she’s got your book, and she’s basically shouting about it all over Australia, isn’t she? Because she absolutely loves it.

Jude Jennison:                    Yeah, and it’s wonderful, isn’t it? I mean, it’s like that … You know, it’s the worldwide web but in human form.

Alison Jones:                        Yes.

Jude Jennison:                    And I love that, the way that we can be connected all over the world. So I’m definitely setting an intention now to go out to Australia and help them shout about it.

Alison Jones:                        Well, if you want any help carrying bags, you know where I am.

Jude Jennison:                    Okay.

Alison Jones:                        Jude, that was absolutely wonderful. Thank you. Really lovely to talk to you, to reflect back on the journey because you and I have worked together for so long on this, but it’s just, you do it, don’t do? Day by day, by day, but it’s just lovely to sort of take a breath and look back and go, “Wow, that was a ride. That was brilliant.”

Jude Jennison:                    It was great to work with you. I really enjoyed the whole process, so thank you.

Alison Jones:                        Oh, it was wonderful, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, if people want to find out more about you, Jude, and more about your wonderful horses, where should they go? And your book of course.

Jude Jennison:                    Well, the book, obviously, the book is called Leading Through Uncertainty, but my website is www.judejennison.com. I’m on Twitter as Jude Jennison, Linkedin as Jude Jennison. There’s no magic or rocket science about it, it’s just my name.

Alison Jones:                        But it’s nice when you have a distinctive name, and you can do that. I’m not jealous at all, well, maybe slightly. I’ll put all those links up on the show notes, Jude, that’s brilliant. Thank you, and then people can go to extraordinarybusinessbooks.com as usual, and you’ll find all those links. But thank you so much for your time today, Jude, it was an absolute pleasure.

Jude Jennison:                    Great. Thank you.


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