Episode 213 – Watertight Marketing with Bryony Thomas

Bryony Thomas‘Anyone who says writing a book is something you can do in 12 weeks or something is just telling people to write a bad book. ‘

It took Bryony Thomas four years to write the first edition of Watertight Marketing (although she did also give birth in that time…), but the time and energy she put into nailing the sequencing and expression of her ideas paid off.

Not only was the first edition a massive success, it became the foundation of a much bigger business. In this conversation we discuss the value of intellectual property as an asset, and also how you approach the task of revising such an iconic book.

When the second edition was nearly complete, Bryony received a devastating diagnosis of pancreatic cancer: she talks frankly about the impact of that in this powerful, profoundly inspiring conversation.


LINKS:

Watertight Marketing: https://watertightmarketing.com/

Bryony on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bryonythomas

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge sign-up link: https://alisonjones.leadpages.co/proposal-challenge/

PI Virtual Writing Retreat wait list: https://alisonjones.lpages.co/virtual-writing-retreat/

PI-Q webinar: The New Balance with Anna Meller: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/pi-q-webinar-virtual-meetings-real-engagement-with-penny-pullan-tickets-101816786750

PI-Q webinar replay: Virtual Meetings, Real Engagement with Penny Pullan: https://youtu.be/fj7BnuOuY7c

Alison Jones
I’m here today with Bryony Thomas who is one of the UK’s foremost marketing thinkers. She’s the author of Watertight Marketing, which has been in the bestseller lists consistently for over five years now with no gimmicks. This groundbreaking book has been described variously as the entrepreneur’s essential marketing manual, a work of genius and a license to print money, which I love. And the second edition is out soon. Welcome to the show, Bryony.

Bryony Thomas
Hi, Alison, lovely to be here.

Alison Jones
Really, really good to be talking to you. And we’re going to start with a bit of context here because we are not talking in normal times. Personally from your point of view, but also just generally in the world. So we’re speaking on the 23rd of March 2020. The world’s going to hell in a handbasket around us Coronavirus, lockdown, all that kind of stuff going on. So that’s very much in our thoughts. And just tell us a little bit about what’s going on for you as well, Bryony.

Bryony Thomas
Yes. So I’m essentially I’m kind of three months ahead of the rest of the world in terms of having had the rug pulled from under me, and having minimal income because my income is based on being at events. And that’s because I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer on the 19th of December, just before Christmas, while this second edition of this book was in production and it was, you know, 90% there as all good books are just ahead of production deadline. And I don’t know what you know about pancreatic cancer but one in four people who are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer die within a month and and the survival rates for a five year survival rate is is under 5%. And so when when I got that news, I genuinely didn’t think I would see this book published. I’ve been very lucky – my cancer was operable, and and I’ve had what’s called a Whipple procedure, which is a complete replumbing of my digestive system. And if I’m talking stats, it takes my five-year survival rate up to about 40%. But I know individuals are not a percentage. And you know, I am very hopeful that that I have a future and I’ve got the book done with amazing support from my good friend and colleague, Cheryl Crichton to get that final push and get it done and out into the world, and I received my print copies last week and honestly burst into tears because I didn’t think I didn’t think I’d see it.

Alison Jones
I can imagine just how emotional that must have been. So now you know the context people and frankly, if you’ve been wittering about excuses, you should probably just shut up now, we’re going to talk about how Bryony… So you got that diagnosis just before Christmas, your world falls apart, I can’t even begin to imagine. Was there a temptation just to say, ‘You know what, forget the book. Suddenly it’s not important to me anymore.’? Clearly If you did have that temptation you got over it, but you know, your perspective changed….

Bryony Thomas
No, you know, my overwhelming thought was: ‘I will get this out.’ And, you know, there was a fortnight in which we didn’t know whether it was operable and I, you know, I was considering all worst options and all that. And honestly, Alison, I just thought. ‘I will get this thing out.’ You know, it’s going to happen. No, at no point did I think shelve it. I thought it’s so close. I’ve got to get it down. I’ve got to leave it as a legacy.

Alison Jones
Yes. Which is really interesting, isn’t it? It shows how visceral that power of writing and leaving your mark on the world is. I mean, you know, writing a book is a slog. It’s all the things we talk about, but at the end of the day, it’s part of you out in the world, isn’t it?

Bryony Thomas
And it was so close. You know, it was either…. no, it’s like it’d be like giving up on a child. It didn’t even cross my mind not to finish it.

Alison Jones
Let’s go right back to the beginning of the book. The metaphor behind watertight marketing is so strong. You know, it’s the idea about the leaky bucket and identifying all the leaks where customers fall out. Where did that come from? And when did you go: ‘You know what? There’s a book here.’

Bryony Thomas
Oh, gosh. So, it goes back to 2008. I set up my business in 2008. So, you know, great time to start a business. Just like now really, you know, you really pick your time. , I had been drawing similar diagrams – I was director of marketing experience marketing services, I was agency side before that as a planner for the likes of IBM. Dell and Microsoft – and I had been drawing a similar diagram for many years. I think I can probably trace back the origins of my thinking, I can trace elements through every marketing job I’ve ever had right back to being a telephone fundraiser when I was 19. And I started designing and training scripts and… like the logic sandwich, that’s chapter three in Watertight marketing, I was designing scripts that were essentially the logic sandwich and there’s a similar diagram that I drew the age of 19. So I’d say the elements in Watertight, I have drawn on every job and every kind of key concept that… it’s my playbook of the last 20 years of marketing. But when did it become a book? So I was, 2008, setting up on my own as a time-for-money consultant, and started speaking locally, I mean I’d speak at the opening of an envelope, you’d find me everywhere. And I kept saying… So the phrase ‘buckets, funnels and taps’ was first presented on the 22nd of October 2009 at a Bristol and bath marketing network in a room above the above the bar, the Slug and Lettuce in Bath…

Alison Jones
Classy..

Bryony Thomas
It was dead classy, it was a great group, a fantastic group, still going. And then I was presenting it again and again and again, I was having those same conversations, drawing the same diagrams. And Cheryl who I just mentioned, she and I were working together on a number of projects. And we were turning clients down a ratio of about three to one. So for one that we could take on there were three that we just didn’t have capacity for. And I thought well, at least if I write it down, I can give them a book…

Alison Jones
And it was it was more about ‘This would be really convenient because I won’t have to…’

Bryony Thomas
I don’t like…. Well I hate letting people down. And I knew there was good material and I knew it was helpful. And I’m a sequential thinker. I’m logical. I write, I always have done. And I’d done an MBA a couple of years earlier. And, you know, I really enjoyed doing the dissertation. And so the idea of writing a book didn’t scare me. And I think the phrase ‘my book’ started being bandied about in about 2010. And it came out in 2013. You know, I think it might have been early in that it was on Twitter, in a conversation with Heather Townsend and Sonja Jefferson, and they were both writing books. And so, ‘Oh, that’s a good idea, isn’t it? I’ll do one of those.’

Alison Jones
How hard can it be?

Bryony Thomas
Oh, yes, how hard can it be?!

Alison Jones
And how hard was it?

Bryony Thomas
Oh Alison, anyone who says writing a book is something you can do in 12 weeks or something is just telling people to write a bad book.

Alison Jones
Do you know what? I’m going to have that printed out and put on our front door, I think.

Bryony Thomas
I mean, I know there are people who write books in in, you know, 24 hours or something, but you can tell because they’re rubbish. And there are far too many rubbish books in the world. I think that people should stop publishing books until they’re actually any good. It took me four years. And that’s in total. I think for every year extra you spend on a book, the better it gets. I’m half joking on that.

Alison Jones
But what was the hard stuff? So there’ll be bits that were fairly straightforward that… So yes, tell me just tell us a little bit. unpack that a bit for us. What took the time?

Bryony Thomas
What took the time? Well, I gave birth in the middle of that year.

Alison Jones
That’s always a bit of an interruption. Yes.

Bryony Thomas
To a baby rather than a book…

Alison Jones
Got it.

Bryony Thomas
…in the middle of it. So I got to first full draft just before giving birth, and then I put it down for six months, because I had something else to do. And I came back to it six months later. And you know, I think that break was really good. I think the book was a lot better for it, because when I came back to it, I could read it a bit more like a reader, and I completely resequenced it. And when I came back to it, I think the distance allowed me to have a bit more of a bird’s eye view and then piece it together in a more in a way where the concepts layer sequentially, one on the next. And I think… honestly I think sequencing is one of the key pieces. I was having another chat with someone this morning about this, that I’d say one of the key differentiators in Watertight as a book as opposed to lots of other marketing books is the sequencing of one idea on the last, and if you work through it as a workbook, which is certainly what it is, that’s the way that it’s been crafted as a sequential process, that’s part of what really differentiates it rather than being yet another list of things you could do.

Alison Jones
Yes, absolutely. And what I love as well as your case study, your little made-up company, just tell us about that.

Bryony Thomas
Yes, I have a made-up company called VA-Voom. Which when I started writing, there was no company in the UK called… well there is now…

Alison Jones
Awkward.

Bryony Thomas
Well, you know, hey, I registered the domain name and stuff. But hey, they haven’t trademarked it since and it was in the book from 2013. So I’ve left it there. And so essentially what I did, I’ve used clients’ examples all the way through, but none of our clients wanted their entire marketing strategy put in the book, which I can completely understand.

Alison Jones
I don’t get that at all.

Bryony Thomas
So I made one up So I’m essentially I made up a fictional company, and the fictional company is called VA-Voom. And they are a virtual assistant company. And we designed a logo, we designed a strap line and I did a marketing plan. And that whole set of brand guidelines, tone-of-voice guide that… so essentially I’ve made up a client and then took that client through the book, through the process, and in order to bring it to life because I think lots of marketing books are very conceptual. And so many of them – I don’t know whether you find this maybe it’s just a bit further – but so many of them use Apple as their example to go well, if I had Apple’s budget I’ll be doing great marketing too…

Alison Jones
it just an unwritten law of business books that you have to have the Apple case study in.

Bryony Thomas
Well, I mean, it’s tedious. I do mention Apple once in the book, but it’s as an example of when things go wrong. I thought that would be… I do have it. In the second edition I’ve got a little aside that says, ‘And that’s not because Apple are the font of all knowledge…’

Alison Jones
But what’s interesting about that, as well, is that it allows you complete freedom. So you can show… it’s very rare to get a case study that really exemplifies everything without any kind of kinks or peculiarities. But you can kind of craft it in that way. So it’s fictionalized, but it’s almost more powerful because of that.

Bryony Thomas
Yes, absolutely. And I was able to, in many ways, take the best bits from each of our clients and smush them together into a complete end to end. And I think having that complete case study, as well as the real client examples… I think the real client examples give people kind of proof and evidential basis that the methodology works in real businesses, but the worked example, the VA-Voom example, just helps them to think through end-to-end how something might be applied.

Alison Jones
Yes, it’s very effective. And I want to come on to the business stuff in a minute actually, not so much other businesses but yours, because the way you’ve built the business around that intellectual property is really fascinating. But let’s… before we leave the writing bit, how was it writing a second edition?

Bryony Thomas
Much harder! So it was already awfully hard. And then the second edition…

Alison Jones
Horribly hard?

Bryony Thomas
Yes, but I loved it.

Alison Jones
Oh that’s really interesting, okay. Tell us the detail.

Bryony Thomas
So, I knew what I wanted to… because I’ve now presented on stage in front of, I don’t know, 20- or 30,000 people since the book came out, and I know what lands and what doesn’t. I know now when there are things in the way that I explain them that… the penny drops. And sometimes the ways that I’ve been explaining things actually causes more confusion. So because I now know what really lands and there were areas that I wanted to just, you know, tighten up on that. And then the other was reemphasis. So, you know, there are some bits in the book that I’ve gone into enormous detail and people are going, you know what, right everyone knows… No, no. Okay. And then there are other bits where I’ve just done an aside, and they’ve gone ‘Oh!’. So there, there are other bits in the book where I’ve just done an aside sentence, and people have gone, ‘You know what? That’s fascinating. Tell me more about that.’ And so there’s a real change of emphasis. Some things I’ve stepped back and some things have been brought forward.

And then there are a couple of new frameworks that have emerged over the over the years and when people have asked me questions, and I’ve gone in something in a bit more depth and drawn another picture, as is my wont – find me a whiteboard. So those are the things I wanted to do now when I came to do it. I think what I’d found is from when I wrote the first edition to the second edition, the language or the meaning attached to the language that I’ve been using has changed. So when I was saying ‘small business’ in 2008 people were imagining a seven-figure business. And these days when I say the words ‘small business’, people are imagining a micro business or somebody sitting at their kitchen table. The words are the same, the meaning attached to those words has changed. And so I had to do quite a lot of language work to make sure that who the book is written for is crystal clear, which meant, you know, throughout the whole book, and there was quite a lot of that to do, which was tricky. And then in a lot of places, I sat down to make the tweaks and I ended up just rewriting the whole paragraph. So the meaning’s the same. There’s nothing in the first edition that’s been taken out. There’s nothing wrong in the first edition. But in the second edition, I’ve often just explained it again, in a different way.

Alison Jones
Which is sort of what you would do… You could end up with a book, forever, couldn’t you, just tweaking, tweaking, rewriting and rewriting: at some point, you just have to stop. So I guess the second edition gives you a second chance to go back and just wordsmith a bit more.

Bryony Thomas
Yes. Although it’s, it’s more than that. It’s more about having lived with the material for long enough to know whether the way you’re explaining is the way that… you know, at school a good teacher will be able to explain a concept from a number of different angles. I had a really poor maths teacher and I used to, I found maths quite difficult at school, and I would sit in the class and I’d look at the board and say, ‘Miss I don’t understand,’ and she’d say, ‘Well, it’s on the board.’ And, you know, that’s a classic example of very poor teaching. Whereas the good teacher would have said, ‘Okay, let me explain it another way.’ And so I think that because I’ve now explained in another way a number of times I know the angles that work for most brains, or I can explain it from a couple of different angles for them. I now know how to do that such that the penny drops, it’s so much more than wordsmithing, it’s more about understanding how things are going to be received.

Alison Jones
Yes, I can see that. What’s interesting, though, is that that central methodology is pretty much unchanged, isn’t it?

Bryony Thomas
Yes, I know. And that, you know, that blows me away. And if anything, it…

Alison Jones
It is phenomenal.

Bryony Thomas
Completely, completely. And you know, none of the core frameworks have changed, none of that. None of the sequencing’s changed, and over the last, you know, 11 years, so since setting up in 2008, and evangelizing these concepts and coming up with them and putting them out into the world, what’s amazed me most is how robust they are in contexts I could never have imagined.

Alison Jones
And that robustness shows up brilliantly in the fact that, having been given the opportunity to change them you didn’t want to, because actually, it’s exactly as it is. It’s just you’ve explained things differently.

Bryony Thomas
Yes, and it’s better evidenced.

Alison Jones
Yes. But another interesting element about it is the way that it was robust enough for you to build not just the book but the business, and so just tell us a little bit about that, how that intellectual property is used to deliver the services as well as actually in the book itself.

Bryony Thomas
Yes, so there are three main services that go with Watertight: there’s a companion programme, the book is 11 chapters and a year has 12 months and it takes a month to get to know one another and then a chapter you know, chapter by chapter, which works really well. And I know there are lots of people who would say a year is a ridiculous time for a programme but for our clients to scale up businesses and the MDs and marketing directors of seven, eight-figure businesses actually a year of working strategically on it on a focus area is absolutely right. You know, I’m not the online guru doing your 12-week get-rich-quick scheme. I couldn’t be further from that. So there’s a programme, it’s called a marketing Transformation Programme. And I do an online VIP version, which is the Masterplan Programme.

I then have a licensing offering – one of the things that Cheryl and I, when we were turning business away at three to one, really wanted was a robust referral network, because your reputation goes with you, doesn’t it, when you refer somebody on? And I’ve always really struggled to refer on to marketing consultants that I think are really worth their metal. I say that because marketing is, you know, not a very well respected discipline. It can be that someone’s built someone a website and think they’re pretty good, and then they’re a marketing consultant. And so, you know, I wanted a network of people who had been marketing directors, who had managed budgets of over six figures, who had proven growth, who worked with sales teams to understand marketing for every step of the sale, not just one tactic or one discipline, there was no real… Right, I’ve got four pages of criteria for licensees. And then add to that, that what we were getting were people who, clients saying they wanted someone to implement Watertight. So not only did they need the background, you know, the 10 years as a marketer with Chartered Institute status and all that, but they also needed to know Watertight, and so we have a licensing model where independent marketing consultants can license the materials. They become a certified practitioner and they go on to our directory. And so the leads that come in via the site, you know, if the programme with me isn’t right, what they want is someone to come into their business and be their consultant or run that program for them, but come from a particular industry background, for example, they go to our directory of consultants.

Alison Jones
I think it’s probably blindingly obvious, but I think just worth making the point as well that you can’t do this stuff if you haven’t got really explicit intellectual property, set out as fully as yours is in your book.

Bryony Thomas
No, absolutely. Because then what you’re licensing… to put it bluntly, you can’t license a word. You know, it’s not that well, although I do have the trademark in Watertight marketing, funnily enough, but it’s not… I mean, I have over 120 worked exercises that can be run as a workshop, a webinar, a day’s consulting exercise, a report framework. And so what the consultants have is a body of work. And that means that they have the structure for, you know, an ongoing client engagement and the client…. ‘The challenge is this, great, here are the exercises to work through.’

Alison Jones
And I think, looking at where you are now with it all fully worked out, there may be people listening who have a methodology, but it’s almost, they’ve barely articulated it themselves. You know, there is a way that they do things but they haven’t… And I think one of the things that I love seeing as a publisher is somebody who has that distinctive approach, who has never really quite articulated they do it in person, one to one, almost unconsciously, helping them see the shape of it. You know, what is it that they’re doing, we’ll put a structure…

Bryony Thomas
Well, writing a book is the answer to that, isn’t it?

Alison Jones
Exactly, because it forces you into clarity.

Bryony Thomas
It does. Yes.

Alison Jones
And what you were saying at the beginning about, actually the book came from just wanting to be able to scale, to not let people down, and that’s what your business has then been able to do as well. And it’s all based about, I think not enough people recognize the value of internet intellectual property as an asset in their business.

Bryony Thomas
Yes, absolutely, well, and the third service that we offer is me as a speaker. So, you know, I speak at conferences and that sort of thing, and there is a massive added value to my fee as a speaker, because I have, you know, recognized intellectual property. And in terms of the way that I package my speaking engagements… So let’s give you a practical example, if I were working with a membership organization, I might go and speak at their conference, every member in the room gets a copy of the book. And then because I have a ready set of intellectual property and courses online, those members are now given a discount code to come and access my courses. Now there’s a way of guiding and monetizing. That comes from having the integrated ecosystem.

Alison Jones
Yes, it’s a beautiful thing. I mean, genuinely it is beautiful thing. And I would recommend anybody listening, obviously go and buy the new edition of the book. But then don’t just stop there. Go to the website, register for the course. You’ve still got the course locked into the book?

Bryony Thomas
Yes, I do at the moment. But because of my diagnosis, the second edition course isn’t yet complete. I’ve had to be okay with imperfection. And so…

Alison Jones
She said through gritted teeth…

Bryony Thomas
I really do, yes.  I really say that through gritted teeth. And so the second edition programme will start in September 2020. The first edition program is there and it’s there at a much reduced price. And so people can still go through this materials and it will make sense. As I say there’s nothing in the first edition that’s gone, and there are extras in the second edition. And so I’ll be starting my guided programme again from September, the accredited, certified practitioners are all up to speed with the second edition and so anybody wanting to work with someone and through second edition material, you know, the directory has people who can do that, and working with me will start in September when hopefully the world will be a place we recognize…

Alison Jones
Yes, roll on September. I did laugh actually – the clocks are going forward this weekend and someone said could we just have them go about four months forward? Would that be all right? Yes, that’d be great.

Bryony Thomas
Let’s all hibernate.

Alison Jones
So yes, read the book, do the course in September, but also just look at a sort of masterclass of somebody building this business so robustly on such a great bit of intellectual property. It is brilliant. Bryony, just as I said, you are at one end of a continuum when many people listening will be… not there. Frankly at the other end: what would be your one best tip for somebody who perhaps has a methodology, has an idea for a book, and isn’t quite sure what to do next?

Bryony Thomas
Get out some post it notes, find a really big wall and post it notes and draw it. And that might be what works for my brain, but it’s visualizing it from a bird’s eye perspective, end to end, you know, map out your process as if you were taking somebody through it end to end and look at the shape and the sequence of it. And, you know, on a wall or on a large piece of paper, because then you start to see the gaps and you see the sequencing errors. And so I would say, grab yourself some post it notes.

Alison Jones
That’s awesome advice. And actually, that feeds straight back into your practice, doesn’t it? I mean, you almost you don’t have to be writing a book to do this, this is going to benefit your marketing copy, how you sell what you do, how you talk people through the process that you’re going to take them through, how you show them the plan that you have for them. All of that.

Bryony Thomas
Systems set you free, man.

Alison Jones
We’re good with the mantras today. And I also always ask people for a recommendation. So apart from Watertight Marketing, obviously, what business book do you think anybody listening should go and read?

Bryony Thomas
A book that I’ve gone back to a number of times, and will probably go back to a number more times, is 24 Assets by Daniel Priestley. And I think he’s a really deep thinker, but what I think is great about Daniel’s work is it It comes from a depth of thought, but it’s really practical, and he’s very good at balancing between, you know, that really considered perspective and slightly counterintuitive thinking, which works for me, but actually turning in something that you can do something with. And you know, another great example of a business that’s built on intellectual property. If you were to look at it as a case study, his KPI, his 24 Assets programme, his 24 Assets Scorecard is an exemplar isn’t it? 24 Assets I think is the best of his four books, the others are also excellent. And it kind of does for the rest of the business what Watertight does for marketing, it goes through all of your assets areas in a business, 24 of them funnily enough, and runs through a really cool checklist of what you need to have in place for a robust scalable business. It’s an excellent book.

Alison Jones
And he talks a lot about the value of intellectual property as part of those assets doesn’t he?

Bryony Thomas
He does and he has another book called Key Person of Influence, which is all about that, having an individual who’s a spokesperson with an intellectual property asset.

Alison Jones
And publishing of course, is one of those of course, so, brilliant. Bryony, if people want to find out more about you, more about Watertight Marketing, where should they go?

Bryony Thomas
Watertightmarketing.com.

Alison Jones
That was easy.

Bryony Thomas
Hey, got to keep it simple, haven’t you. People have got too much to get on with in their lives to make it complicated.

Alison Jones
Which is your social media platform of choice?

Bryony Thomas
I’m probably most on Twitter, but you can find me in most places.

Alison Jones
I’m so glad to say that I’m feeling real kind of shame at not really embracing Instagram. I don’t really like Instagram, sorry, Instagram, but Twitter I absolutely love and I’m just hoping that it stays there and doesn’t get old and people don’t get tired of it because I love it.

Bryony Thomas
I think, you know, I think I think the Twitter generation were those who set up their businesses in the kind of early 10s. You know, I think Twitter’s heyday was 2007 to 2015 sort of time and I think a lot of my contacts, I’m still really well connected with those that I made there. And what I find difficult about Instagram is it doesn’t seem as chatty and it doesn’t seem as conversational.

Alison Jones
No, it seems very posturing. Also I can’t bear the fact you can’t use it from a laptop because that’s where all my stuff is that I want to post.

Bryony Thomas
RIght, yes. And that’s a generational thing, isn’t it? Because there are there are people who don’t touch a laptop aren’t there.

Alison Jones
Yes, I’m old. I’m not trying to hide it.

Bryony Thomas
I’ve got that I’ve got two screens and you know extra… and I print things out to read them

Alison Jones
Bless. Yes, and yes, we are who we are and we’ve got to do what we do. The other thing about Instagram is I went for a run the other day and posted up a ‘run happy’ pic on Instagram and then just out of curiosity looked at the runhappy hashtag and – oh my goodness, I wanted to take my picture down, it was full of 20 somethings looking fabulous. And yes, I spoilt the timeline horribly.

Bryony Thomas
Well, the ordinary… all the business hashtags are the kind of ‘make a million in a week’ people, which I find quite funny. It’s full of gurus who are, you know, 19 and making a million on TikTok.

Alison Jones
We’ll have to start a sort of counter revolution on Instagram to keep it real.

Bryony Thomas
There are a few, there are some great spoof Instagrams out there where people do kind of their take on the shot of the day from celebrities.

Alison Jones
Hashtag nailedit. Yes. Brilliant. It was such a pleasure to talk to you, Bryony. Thank you. And thank you for… you’re so clear about what’s going on. This is how it is. But actually, I can’t tell you how much I value that and I think it will have been incredibly valuable to everybody else as well. So thank you so much.

Bryony Thomas
You’re very welcome. Lovely to talk to you.

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