Episode 34 – The Writing Habit with Rebecca Evans

Rebecca Evans“What separates the successful writers from those who ‘kind of want to’ write,” Bec Evans realised during her time working at a writers’ centre, isn’t talent or even the original idea, important though they are. “What made them successful was their persistence, building that writing habit, and, fundamentally, finishing their projects.”

And so she developed WriteTrack, ‘Fitbit for writers’, a clever way of using technology to hold yourself accountable for your writing progress.

In this podcast she dives into the psychology of setting goals, establishing a writing habit and understanding how to trick yourself into achieving success.

I’m particularly taken by the idea of rewarding myself with a bottle of champagne after a solid 250 words…


WriteTrack: www.write-track.co.uk/ (and on Facebook, Medium and Twitter)

The Liar’s Guide to Writing: http://blog.write-track.co.uk/liarsguidetowriting/

Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies quiz: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/1950137/Four-Tendencies-January-2015

Alison Jones:  Hello, and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club. Today I’m here with Bec Evans who is a really good friend of mine so I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. Bec is head of innovation at Emerald Publishing Group and she’s also, most importantly for this call, the founder of Write Track which she describes as Fitbit for writers. We’ll talk a little about it. You’ll see what I mean. That might not mean anything to you. It’s that part of her life that we’re going to focus on today.

Bec and I did a workshop together back in January on the writing habits, making your book happen, just carving out the time for it. That’s one of the things I really want to talk to her about today because she’s got some fascinating stuff to say about how you carve out the time to write and how you discover what kind of person you are and what’s going to suit you. Welcome to the club, Bec.

Bec Evans:      Hello, so excited to be here.

Alison Jones:  Oh, it’s so good to have you here.

Bec Evans:      Thank you.

Alison Jones:  Right, now start off with Write Track. Just tell us a little bit about it. Fitbit for writers is probably not going to help many people. How does it start? What’s it all about?

Bec Evans:      Basically, Write Track is an early stage startup and we make productivity tools for people who want to write. It was called Fitbit for writers because it uses technology that’s often used in the fitness, health, and the diet sectors. It’s basically a system that helps people build a writing habit that works for them. It’s not software so it’s not like Word, or Noveller or Scrivener. It uses what’s called persuasive technology which helps people set writing goals, break them down into small and achievable steps, and track their progress so they can learn from their activity and fundamentally become more productive.

Over the past couple of years we’ve been working with writers of all types to test the technology, refine the system, and that we’re hoping to have a product out by the end of this year. You asked about where I got the idea and as you said I work in publishing but a few years ago I kind of stepped away from publishing to work directly with writers. I ran a writer’s centre. I found that each week the writers would turn up for their courses and those were run by really successful writers and they would talk about their writing, their habits, and read from their work.

It really made me realize that what separates the successful writers from those who kind of want to write wasn’t the talent or the original idea. That’s important but what made them successful was their persistence, building that writing habit, and, fundamentally, finishing their projects. It coincided with when I got a smartphone and I was obsessively tracking steps and my running and things like that. It just made me think, “Why isn’t there something like this for creative projects? Why isn’t there something like this for writers?”

Alison Jones:  Brilliant. I love the idea of persuasive technology. I’ve not heard that phrase before. It’s exactly it, isn’t it?

Bec Evans:      It is. It is.

Alison Jones:  That idea of using what you’ve got and applying it in a different sphere of life as well. I love that.

Bec Evans:      Yes, I often think that it’s not really about the technology. It’s just giving people the tools and the techniques to understand themselves better. I think the persuasive bit is all about your own psychology really.

Alison Jones:  Tell me a little bit more about that. I’m a Fitbit fanatic and I log all my runs and my steps and everything. I’m the ‘what doesn’t get measured doesn’t get done’ principle. Also it’s fun. I like seeing the progress, I like seeing an unbroken thread, and I do think that’s not everybody. I think it’s a certain personality type. I like the gamification, if you like, of it. How do you know if this is going to work for you?

Bec Evans:      Everybody is different. They all have different preferences and there’s different ways of holding yourself accountable to your own goals. Technology can really help you do that. When you talk about gamification with any kind of psychology of behaviour change because what you’re trying to do is… often when people write a book it’s something new for them. They’ve got to figure out how to do it, how to fit it into their lives. They have to change some of their behaviours and they have to find the time which might involve stopping doing some things and starting doing this new habit which is writing.

The psychology of it is just around helping people to reward themselves for that activity. As you talk about, on Fitbit you get badges, you can get streaks. For a certain type of person that’s incredibly rewarding. Basically it’s about you’ve got to finish a project, you’ve got to finish a book. It could be like a project management tool. It’s just seeing that word count increase. Seeing the number of days that you’ve written. That seems to give people that absolute delight and pleasure and it just keeps them going.

Alison Jones:  That’s so true, isn’t it? I have to say I’m not terribly proud of myself. I get such a kick out of a virtual sticker. I’m aware it’s not such a big deal but somehow it’s a little dopamine hit, isn’t it? It’s bizarre.

Bec Evans:      Well, it is. I think you’re right. Behaviour change is all about that dopamine hit. It’s about using your psychology and rewards whether you are training a dog to do something you give them a reward. If you’re training yourself to do something you need to reward yourself as well. Often it starts off being something external. “If I finish this two hundred words I’m going to spend five minutes on Facebook.” Whatever you think your reward is. It could just be a really nice cup of coffee. What’s really important is having very small rewards for small progress. It’s not like, “I’ve done 250 words. I’m going to have a bottle of champagne.” You’ll never get your book finished at that rate.

Alison Jones:  You could have a lot of fun trying though, couldn’t you?

Bec Evans:      Yes. The most enjoyable book writing habit ever. Yes.

Alison Jones:  “It just seems to get better as I go on…”

Bec Evans:      “This is the best writing I’ve ever done…”

Alison Jones:  I love that.

Bec Evans:      Can you imagine that on Pomodoro technique? Twenty minutes of writing, five minutes of champagne.

Alison Jones:  It’s got legs, Bec. It’s got legs.

Bec Evans:      That’s the next one.

Alison Jones:  That’s the next one. We’ve got the rewards thing which I think is genius and totally works for me. It ticks all my boxes. In terms of actually finding the time, though, and I know you have produced Write Track while holding down a full-time job and most people who are writing their first book haven’t got the luxury of Graham Allcott’s beach hut in Thailand or somewhere. Most of us can’t do that. We are carving out time in between getting kids to school and getting jobs done and basically trying to manage our normal lives. How on earth do people carve out time to write a book?

Bec Evans:      Well, when you look at productivity as a set of theories and practices it fundamentally comes down to prioritizing your time. It’s a bit boring but: scheduling it. Writing is never going to be the most urgent thing on your to-do list. I think sometimes this is where business writers can have an advantage over creative writers because if you’re writing a blog, a conference talk, or a book it can be a really important part of your business goals and that can help your prioritize it.

Once you’ve got it as something on your to-do list you really need to focus on scheduling time to do it. Scheduling isn’t as simple as just having a look on your calendar and making an appointment. At Write Track we talk about red, amber, and green times because there’s times in your schedule where you’re already booked, you already have commitments. You have a job, you have a family, you try to do some exercise. I find that the best thing to do is block out all the times you can’t write and that also includes when you are not at your best for writing. You might look at your calender and think, “Brilliant. Between 9 and 10:30 every night I’ve got a clear hour and a half for writing.” It’s like, you can’t write at 9 o’clock at night because you’re on your knees after an exhausting day.

You need to be really realistic about what you can achieve and when. You want to look for those amber times which might be times where, they’re not perfect for writing but you can do a writing activity. You might be in the office and you’re going to get distracted but not too much. You might want to do some research, you might do some editing. You could do a little bit of organizing your files and your ideas, it all helps you write. When you’ve got those green times, those really, really productive times, you can schedule them and you can guard them and then you won’t get distracted from writing.

It’s not very sexy but using scheduling would make a big, big difference to finding the time.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, that’s so true. I’m laughing when you say that, “Oh, I can write between half 9 and half 10 at night.” This is a secret of adulthood for me. I’ve got to the age mid-40s and it’s like, actually, I’m good for nothing at half 9. Nothing is going to happen. I shouldn’t make myself do anything. If it doesn’t happen in the morning it’s not going to happen.

Bec Evans:      Yes, and for some people it works really well getting up in the morning but for others that can be a complete nightmare. If you’re trying to get kids off to school or trying to get yourself ready for your day’s work that can be some of the most distracted time of the day. Again, it goes back to understanding yourself really.

Alison Jones:  Let’s talk a little about that because that is fascinating, isn’t it? Obviously it took me a very long time to learn that I should never try and do anything at half 9 at night. How do you short circuit that? How do you understand better who you are and how you work in order to get things done?

Bec Evans:      There are several different approaches but I think (coming from a tech perspective) I think this is where tracking and where data can really come into its own. Often people think of data as being a big scary thing but actually your data, even making a note in your own diary, helps you understand your own patterns and your own habits. On Write Track that’s what we really try to do. People set goals and they’re often too ambitious. We have this tendency to overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a year. I think that if you can get those first few goals so you’re achieving them and then feeling good about it so going back to that reward and the dopamine and the psychology: if you can write for even just a very small amount of time and start doing that you will be more likely to continue.

You can only do that if you’re actually tracking your progress or if you’re reflecting on it. I think it’s as important to do the writing, you have to do the writing but take even just a few seconds to think about, “What worked? What can I do better next time?” Then set a more achievable goal.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I’m nodding away here. It’s interesting. When I do my bootcamp after the proposal challenge we have two strands. One is on the book and one is in the book. In the ‘on the book’ track we talk about the business stuff but we also talk about reflecting on your writing practice and what’s working for you and how do you work best and how do you get the best out of yourself. It’s really interesting what comes out of that.

Bec Evans:      Indeed.

Alison Jones:  It’s noticing, isn’t it?

Bec Evans:      It is noticing.

Alison Jones:  I remember as well that when we did the workshop you talked about a fascinating framework that I hadn’t heard about before which made all kinds of sense to me. I wondered if you could share that with us as well. It’s Gretchen Rubin’s framework, isn’t it?

Bec Evans:      It is. Gretchen Rubin wrote The Happiness Project and then she wrote a book called Better than Before which is really about habits. It’s about trying to build new habits and stop doing bad habits. She came up with this questionnaire that’s been done by hundreds of thousands of people now and it’s like on one level it feels like a fun questionnaire you might do in the back of a magazine. Actually she’s got an incredibly simple framework that broke people down into four personality types for habits.

You have Upholders and they respond to outer and in expectations. They’re kind of like I have to think of them as the good girls at school who do all the homework. Then you have the Questioners who they just question everything, “Why am I doing this? Is this going to work? Does this make sense?” They often put off doing things because they question why they’re doing it, why is someone asking me to do this thing? Rebels – they can just resist all expectations. They can be the hardest to work with. Then you have the Obligers which I think is the most common tendency. These are people who meet other people’s expectations. When you get asked to do something for somebody you prioritize that over the things that you would do for yourself. Yeah, Obligers respond very well to things like writing groups, to writing contracts, to getting involved in challenges where they know there’s a community, where they know there are people who are expecting something from them.

I find that by understanding what tendency you are you can put in place structures around you that gives you the support to help you meet your goals.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, I think that’s so interesting and I’d like to think of myself as an Upholder but I think I discovered I’m probably more of an Obliger with Upholder tendencies.

Bec Evans:      Yes, yes, yes.

Alison Jones:  That’s great actually because once you know that you’re like, “Okay, what I have to do is have somebody external telling me I need to do this and then suddenly it becomes something I have to do for them rather than me and therefore it’s more likely to get done.”

Bec Evans:      Absolutely.

Alison Jones:  Again, I’m not proud of this but it’s just what works, isn’t it?

Bec Evans:      It is and I think that’s what you have to do, you always have to focus on what works for you. Unless you’re a Questioner, don’t question ‘Is this good?’ Just do it. If it’s working for you, accept that and then use that to your advantage.

When you’ve got a book to write and it’s a big daunting task you need all the support you can get.

Alison Jones:  What advice for Rebels? I think this is a really tough … I know. Sorry. This is a tough one, isn’t it? I recognize it in my kids, I’ll tell you that. As soon as you say, “Please do this thing” it’s the last thing they want to do. I think we all have a bit of it in us but for some people it’s a real issue. How do you get around that?

Bec Evans:      To be honest with you I think this is absolutely the hardest thing to fix. I think Rebels still would respond to working with somebody else to figure out their own psychology. If you knew you were a rebel your instant reaction would be, “I’m not going to get up at 5:30 to write. I’m not going to do that. Just because they said that’s the best thing I’m not going to do that.” Again it’s about catching yourself doing that. If you know you’re a Rebel and you’re going to reject whatever comes your way you need to take that next step and understand why you’re rejecting it. It would probably be the hardest tendency to work with, definitely.

Alison Jones:  We had a couple of Rebels in the room, didn’t we, when we were in the workshop?

Bec Evans:      It was very easy to spot them because there was this brilliant questionnaire (and I encourage anybody just to Google Gretchen Rubin’s four tendencies and just take it, it takes a minute or two if that. You’ll find out who you are.). Basically everybody else could put themselves into groups. We had all the Upholders, all the Questioners, and all the Obligers. You had a couple of people who just didn’t fill in the questionnaire and we went, “I think you might be Rebels.” It was very funny. It was really easy. They don’t need a questionnaire because you can figure that out.

Alison Jones:  Brilliant. You touched on community. Particularly for Obligers like me. Tell me a little bit more about that because I know the community bit is a big part of Write Track and you’re running the challenge that I was doing recently. I think you’ve been part of the 10 Day Business Book Challenge as well, haven’t you?

Bec Evans:      I have. Yeah, this is fascinating. I’d love to talk a bit about how you and I are different around this. For me, community is very much around accountability and that, as we just said, means very different things to different people. Some people, for them, accountability means being part of a community so having lots of people around them, sharing their goals, getting that kind of public cheerleading, whereas other people absolutely hate that idea. There’s really good research that shows if you tell people about your goals you can be more likely to achieve them.

There’s also a small percentage of people, and I wonder whether these might be our Rebels again, is that: if you tell people it can give you a bit of that psychological kick that makes you think you’ve done the task. You might be less likely to do it. Again, it’s like using the positive psychology that you get from accountability to help you make progress. There’s a really big difference between just going publicly and going, “I’m going to write a book.” You’re just telling people to do it and being held accountable.

Again, going back to where writing groups and challenges come in. I’ve found that we run a 5 day challenge. You’ve got your 10 day business challenge and you’ll find that there’s people who will be very, very active on the Facebook group, and they might be your Obligers, and then you have other people who don’t go on the Facebook group but very quietly at home do all the exercises, watch all the videos, do their homework and then at the end of the two weeks they’ve got a proposal and you’ve not seen them do any of it because what they didn’t want to do is tell everybody they were doing it.

Alison Jones:  It’s so interesting. Both times I’ve run the challenge that hasn’t happened. I absolutely expected it. I’m sure it will one day. I have really noticed a correlation between the people who are active in the group and also supporting other people. I think the people, certainly the ones who submitted it first, are also the ones who are most encouraging and helpful with other people’s stuff. I haven’t had a single person who’s been out there not doing it in the group who has handed in a proposal. That might be, thinking about it, because of the way I structured it because you posted each task day by day in the group and maybe people just thought that if you hadn’t done that you couldn’t submit the proposal at the end. Interesting.

Yeah, no, it’s very interesting that definitely the people who have done it I could have said … Day 4 I could probably have told you they would have handed in their proposal. It’s really interesting.

Bec Evans:      It is fascinating. I think that’s where, again, if you go back to how you designed that challenge it was designed to people working in small, incremental public steps so they had a structure and an accountability and a community to keep them going and it did keep them going. As you said, you can figure out quite early on those who are going to drop off and those who it really, really works for.

Alison Jones:  Do you think I could have designed that differently to get a different kind of person involved? How might that have worked?

Bec Evans:      I’m just trying to think. I’m an Upholder and for me I figure out what I want to do and I often do stuff. I didn’t join the Facebook group because I left Facebook a few years ago because it just was a bit too much for me. I like to work quite quietly. I got your emails every single day and did my homework. I haven’t finished my proposal but it was about 80%, 90% of the way there.

Alison Jones:  You would have been the person that proved me wrong.

Bec Evans:      Again, because of the way it was structured I felt I couldn’t submit it because also I’m working to my own sense of accountability so I was thinking, “No, I need to do some more work on this”. I was being a perfectionist as well which is something that we should all avoid at all times.

Alison Jones:  Done is better than perfect.

Bec Evans:      Most certainly. Yes. Yes.

Alison Jones:  That’s so interesting. I wonder if there’s anybody else like that then. Of course, I wouldn’t know because they wouldn’t tell me.

Bec Evans:      Again, this is where the way we design … In behaviour change there’s stuff called choice architecture. A good example of this is where people are on a diet. What you do to affect your choice architecture is don’t have biscuits in your house. If you want to go running make sure your running shoes are visible. It’s kind of like the architecture and stuff around you. That’s really important around procrastination as well. Whatever the structures are you put around you help to act as prompts and triggers to do things. The kind of challenge is set up in a certain way to trigger people to act within a certain time. Give people a deadline, give them a clear activity to do, and then tell them the instructions on how to load it up and how they’re going to be judged or held accountable for it.

Alison Jones:  That is the feedback every time. I’d never have done this if I hadn’t had that framework, that structure, that accountability and that support along the way. It’s interesting. Most people listening to this obviously are going to be writing their book alone. They’re just going to be trying to do it. What kinds of things an they do to get those benefits without necessarily falling in the way of a challenge or just the right time for them?

Bec Evans:      There’s lots of different advice that people can take. I’m just wondering to talk a little bit about The Liar’s Guide which is a kind of an eBook.

Alison Jones:  Oh, yes, do. I love this.

Bec Evans:      Yeah, so The Liar’s Guide is an eBook that we put on our website. It’s free for people who subscribe to our newsletter. What it’s really doing is it’s tricking you into becoming more productive. Accountability is one of the elements but there’s lots of other research that’s from psychology, behaviour change, and the science of habits that can give you the support. What we found is that whatever you’re writing the process is the same for it. There’s lots and lots of writing advice out there but the only way to write a book is to sit down and write it but that’s not useful enough. We wanted to pull together all this research in a fun and cheeky sort of way to trick you, trick your monkey mind, into being productive.

A good example is setting very, very small goals. There’s a guy at Stanford University called B. J. Fogg. He talks about, if you want to build a habit of flossing your teeth you floss just one tooth. You make a task so small you can’t put it off. It’s just the same with writing. If you want to start writing just say to yourself, “I’m just going to pick up my notepad and I’m just going to write down my title and two words.” Then you do that one day and then the next day you think, “I’m just going to spend another minute doing this.” What it’s about is helping people … We call it writing unthinkingly so not relying on your willpower which is this limited resource which just depletes as you go through the day. I know sometimes you can get to the office at 9 o’clock and think, “I honestly can’t make another decision.”

What we try to do is help people build a writing habit. They just do it. It’s something natural that’s part of ideally their day to day. Another trick could be just attaching it to something you do. If you have a coffee in the morning why not sit down with your notepad at the same time and just make some notes on what you’re going to achieve with your writing, write down some writing ideas. There’s lots of cheeky top tips into basically tricking yourself in The Liar’s Guide.

Alison Jones:  Love it. I will put the link up on the show notes as well because you’re right. It’s such a great tip.

Bec Evans:      Oh, do.

Alison Jones:  I have to say actually there’s a couple of things that come to mind as you say that. One is, I’m streaking at the moment. I say I’m streaking at the moment, the intention is that I streak forever. I don’t put an end date on it. At the moment I’m running every day and blogging every day and I’ve been doing it for about 25 days now. It’s all Seth Godin’s fault. The running thing, I just get my kit ready at night and I put it beside the bed. I fall out of bed and before my brain is quite worked out what’s going on I’m in my running kit and then you run. Why wouldn’t you?

The blogging every day thing is harder because I need longer than I can carve out in the morning after a run and before the kids are up. But because I know I have to do it it’s a different question. It’s, when am I going to fit it in? What’s it going to be about? Not, shall I blog? Somehow that takes less willpower. It’s really interesting.

Bec Evans:      There’s lots of research to back that up and willpower is just really appalling in getting you to achieve anything. You just have to … I think it’s over 40% of the decisions we make in a day are habits. You don’t decide whether you’re going to brush your teeth before and after breakfast. You don’t decide whether you put your left or your right shoe on first. There’s a whole bunch of stuff we just do automatically. That’s my mission – to make writing as automatic as brushing your teeth, picking up your car keys and going to work. That level of habit. Unthinking.

Alison Jones:  Unthinking writing. That’s what we want.

Bec Evans:      Yes.

Alison Jones:  I’m not sure about that phrase exactly.

Bec Evans:      It’s not going to quite work but, yeah.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, absolutely and just writing as a habit as something you do. It’s brilliant. I was going to ask you, as I ask everybody, what’s the one best piece of advice that you’d give to a first time business book author? I suspect it’s probably buried in what you’ve already said but just to pull it out for us. If you could only give one bit of advice to somebody who’s listening what would it be?

Bec Evans:      It would be, be prolific. I think we often think of being prolific as a bit of a dirty word but fundamentally the more you write the better you get. If you apply that in a deliberate way and learn from it you will become a better writer. It’s about be prolific in your volume, be prolific in writing in your habit, writing every single day, and having lots and lots of ideas. You really don’t know which of your ideas are going to work until you’ve got to put them out into the world.

As I always say there’s lots of research on this that people… look at the 10,000 hours rule which is around deliberate practice by Ericsson. There’s some really good research on academic writers actually by Boyce. He found that those who wrote regularly and prolifically wrote more, they have more work published, they have more ideas, they were happier, and for academics they were more likely to get tenure. The writing as part of their job was really, really good for their business and their careers.

Alison Jones:  That’s music to my ears because I bang on about this all the time that actually writing is such a good business practice. Not just because you write content that people then read and it brings them to you but actually for yourself, for your clarity, the quality of your thinking. It’s just such a useful thing to do.

Bec Evans:      It is. It is. When you were talking to Seth Godin around this it’s like writing helps you think and for me that’s how I articulate what I believe in. You don’t really know what your ideas are until you try to communicate them to someone else or teach someone else what they were. It’s the best way of you learning yourself.

Alison Jones:  Absolutely. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much, Bec. That’s fantastic. I always ask people who else I should speak to on this show. Somebody else who has got something interesting to say about writing, about business books, about business in general. Who do you think I should talk to next?

Bec Evans:      I really struggle with this one because there was so many. My wish list went on for ages quite honestly. What I thought, I wanted somebody who would be almost quite challenging. I listened to a lot of American podcasts and there’s this guy called Ryan Holiday and he’s an author and a philosopher but he writes about growth hacking. He’s a bit of a media manipulator. He’s worked with quite a few of famous writers. People like Tim Ferriss, Tony Robbins, Tucker Max, James Altucher. He gets their books and he does … It’s not as simple as doing a stunt with the books but really helping them get lots of publicity. It’s an approach to marketing which I think in some ways can be quite uncomfortable to us but is also really, really liberating. I just think he would be a fascinating guy. He’s called Ryan Holiday and his first book was called Trust Me, I’m Lying.

I really like him because he also writes on philosophy. His last two have been about stoicism which is a practice of philosophy that I try to practice myself. It’s absolutely fascinating.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, and he’s also got a very fascinating book club.

Bec Evans:      He has. He has.

Alison Jones:  We scheduled him for an interview and then he couldn’t make it. He’s gone quiet on me. I should take this opportunity to go back and try and get him again.

Bec Evans:      You should definitely chase him down because I think he would really bring a different perspective to the business of book marketing and book writing. Being an author himself he knows what it’s like to sit down and churn out the words.

Alison Jones:  Brilliant. Superb recommendation. Thank you very much. Bec, just finally, if people want to find out more about you and about Write Track particularly, where can they go?

Bec Evans:      The best place is probably starting with Twitter. We’re @Write_Track and there’s links to our blog and our website from there. We’ve got a fortnightly newsletter that goes out. You can find us on the usual places, Facebook, Medium, LinkedIn. As I said right at the beginning, we’re an early stage startup so our product isn’t out there. We often run tests of challenges with writers so we’ve got a five day challenge that people can sign up to and have a go. We’ll have the product out at the end of the year.

Alison Jones:  Maybe you’ll come back on at that point and we can talk about that as well. That would be really good to see how it actually works when it’s live.

Bec Evans:      Definitely. I’d love to.

Alison Jones:  Fantastic. As I say, I’ll put the links up on the show notes and certainly the link to The Liar’s Guide which I can’t recommend highly enough. It’s brilliant. It’s just how to cheat at life basically. It’s brilliant.

Bec Evans:      It is. It is.

Alison Jones:  Fantastic. Thank you so much, Bec. I thoroughly enjoyed today. I could have talked a lot longer but we’re going to have to stop.

Bec Evans:      It has been excellent. Thank you so much, Alison.


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