Episode 341 – Branding with Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek

“Of course we want to predict, what’s the world going to be like in 5, 10, 15 years? How can I, as a brand, put myself in an advantageous position to thrive in this hypothetical future? But through taking a human-based approach, we’re going to ask a different, and I think complementary question: not what’s going to change, but what’s going to stay constant. And if humans are your primary customers, the most relevant constants are going to be the constants of human nature.”

The science of branding is undergoing a revolution as we begin to better understand the neurology of decision-making. Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek interrogate this new world of branding with a ruthless focus on what the implications are for businesses. You might love your brand, but if it doesn’t mean anything to your customers, sorry, it’s not a brand. 

As well as this fascinating insight into the frontiers of marketing, we discuss the creative conflict (and the cocktails) involved in writing a book from two different perspectives, the challenges that presents and the reasons why it’s so worthwhile. 



Happy at Work podcast: https://happyatworkpodcast.com/

Tessa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tessamisiaszek/

Matt’s website: https://www.mattjohnsonisme.com/

Matt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattjohnsonisme

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

Join the Exploratory Writing Street Team: https://alisonjones.lpages.co/exploratory-writing-street-team/

Join me in London on 6 December for the launch of Exploratory Writing: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/448701898457

The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge January 2023: https://pi-q.learnworlds.com/course?courseid=proposal-challenge-jan-23

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The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

Alison Jones: I’m here today with Matt Johnson PhD, who’s a speaker, researcher and writer specializing in the application of psychology and neuroscience to marketing. He’s the author of the best selling consumer psychology book Blindsight and a regular contributor to major news outlets including Psychology Today, Forbes, and BBC.

As the co-founder of the neuro marketing firm, Pop Neuro, he also consults with a wide range of brands, including as an expert in residence for Nike. He’s a professor of psychology of marketing at Holt International Business School, and an instructor at Harvard University’s division of continuing education.

And with us also is Tessa Misiaszek, who is a speaker, writer, and professor who throughout her professional academic experience has examined the intersection between marketing strategy and workplace culture. Tessa completed her PhD at Simmons University in Boston and taught in the Simmons School of Management and Holt International Business School for several years.

She also holds a Master’s Degree in Public Health and a BSc in Resource Economics from the University of Massachusetts Amhurst. She’s the Head of Research for the Korn Ferry Institute, an instructor with Harvard Division of Continuing Education and co-founder of the Happy at Work podcast.

Always slightly nerve-wracking when you are being a podcast host for a podcaster, nevermind, get over that.

And together they are the authors of a new book from the Economist, Branding That Means Business. So very, very good to have you both here, Tessa, I’m sorry, probably mangled your name.

Tessa Misiaszek: You did a great job. Thank you so much for having us.

Alison Jones: I had a pronunciation guide. So anyway, very good to see you here. Well, let’s start with that big idea at the heart of branding that means business. What’s it all about?

Matt Johnson: So our focus of the book is really on consumers. And the big sort of message we want to send is that brands really matter when and only when they matter to humans, to consumers. And so this is as necessarily this sort of two way dynamic between a brand and their market. A brand can’t really unilateral.

Dictate what they stand for and if and how they’re meaningful for the consumer. So necessarily need to invite the consumer into the brand building process. Sometimes this means sort of adjusting and amending one’s brand identity to sort of keep up with sort of modern values and multiple sort of cultural references.

This can also mean sort of from the very inception, Really building a brand for your sort of target consumers and actually invite a consumer into that brand identity building process. But in either, it’s really about sort of bringing the consumer into the space and ultimately that’s when and only when brands can mean business.

Alison Jones: And, and it’s actually, it is quite, it’s quite hard to hear as a business, isn’t it? Because you, you love your brand so much and you, it’s so meaningful to you, but you make that point. If your brand doesn’t mean anything to the consumer, then it ain’t a brand

Tessa Misiaszek: Absolutely.  It’s interesting because when we think about branding, when we talk to a number of businesses, and even when we ask our students in our MBA course, marketing course, what is a brand? Automatically people think about logo, they think about motto, they think about those brand identity factors.

But what we really came to learn throughout the course of researching for the book is that those brands that were the most powerful, that had the biggest impact were those that really operationalize their purpose, their values throughout the entire business. So again, it’s about creating meaning, not just for the company but it’s also about creating meaning for your employees who are the touch point of the brand with the consumers.

And then of course, ultimately creating that meaning for the consumers themselves.

Alison Jones: And you make such a good point about the human aspect there because I think so much of marketing today, it is about technologies, it’s about the enablers, it’s about the analytics, it’s about the data. And it was interesting just reading a book that really brought it back to that human connection because if you haven’t got that at the centre of it, then you’ve got nothing.

Matt Johnson: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, coming from, from my perspective, which is, is neuroscience, one question that I get quite a bit is, you know, what’s the value of, of neuroscience and marketing? We have market research, we have focus groups, we have all this market research data. And for me, the value of neuroscience is really in, in helping brands to address the future.

And of course, when it comes to addressing the future, there’s, you know, a lot of investment instead of trend spotting. Sort of, you know, aggregating existing data and projecting and forecasting, and that’s no doubt an important pursuit. Of course, you know, we want to predict what’s going to happen and what’s the world going to be like in 5, 10, 15 years.

How can I, as a brand, put myself in an advantageous position to thrive in this hypothetical future? But I think through taking a human-based approach, we’re going to ask a different, and I think complementary question: asking, not what’s going to change, but really what’s going to stay constant, what’s not going to change?

And especially if a brand is operating primarily b2c, if humans are your primary customers, the most relevant constants are going to be the constants of human nature.

Alison Jones: Which are depressingly constant. Yeah.

Matt Johnson: Absolutely, absolutely. And of course that only gets us, you know, so far, because us humans are these, you know, strange, quirky, sometimes unpredictable, multifaceted you know, hypocritical sometimes creatures.

So it doesn’t you know, get us, you know, all the way there to say we just have to be, you know, tethered to human nature. Because human nature is obviously complex, but nonetheless it does admit to some sort of general constants. And if we’re trying to sort of be tethered to what our market is doing, really being tethered to, to human nature is really the way to go. So that’s one of the messages that you know, we’ve really, you know, made, made a very explicit attempt of sort of shining through in the book.

Alison Jones: And one thing that really struck me from that actually reading it was and of course this is entirely because I am a small business owner and I work a lot with small business owners, but the emotional content of the brand, In a sense, it’s, it’s easier to identify with that when you have a strong personal connection and, and you know, the owner is the brand and, and so on.

So I just, it was interesting, you know, as, as you were writing, I, I, I know that you’re writing really for big business, but what are your thoughts on kind of brands and small businesses and where they stand, their advantages, their disadvantages as they create that?

Tessa Misiaszek: Well, I think for entrepreneurs in particular, it’s really important to think about the brand at, at the outset of starting the company. I, that certainly will put the entrepreneur at an advantage if they can really not just think about the product, the widget, the service that they’re delivering to the customer and building a a business around that.

But also, what does that mean to the customer? What kind of company do they wanna operate? You know, how will the culture within the company actually translate to the employees and the teams that they will develop? How do they wanna be known to their consumers? And if we look at really strong brands today, they started as small companies like Patagonia, right?

The founder of Patagonia wanted to create great climbing equipment for, because he was a climber himself and cared about the environment and really, from the outset, that was his purpose, that was his mission. And as the company grew, he was able to really grow the purpose of his company, to have an even greater impact on those things that he wanted to affect, like the environment in a positive way.

So for small businesses, for entrepreneurs, honestly, it’s more important than ever to really think about the brand at the outset, but also understand that there’s an advantage to being local, to being. Closer to the community, to being more connected so that when you are competing against the Amazons and the big platforms that are making things very accessible and cheap, that you can differentiate yourself by being local, by being more connected to the consumer, and the consumers will likely pay back that kind of focus on them with loyalty and to your, to your product, to your service, to your business.

Alison Jones: Yeah, it’s a great point about differentiation, isn’t it? Because you can never compete with, you know, Amazon’s operational efficiency. But there are lots of aspects that you can trump them on in when it comes to the human connection and the brand. Yeah. Fascinating. And it is, I’ve always interested when I’m talking to people who’ve written together.

So before we get onto the writing bit, which is endlessly fascinating to, to me and to people who, who listen to the podcast, I’d love to just, you know, what are the sort of the complementary perspectives that, that you bring? How did you write a better book together than either of you could have done apart, if you like?

Tessa Misiaszek: Oh, Matt, you can take this one first.

Matt Johnson: Yes. I think so coming from, from sort of my area of expertise, which is sort of neuroscience, consumer psychology, I mean, that was really the perspective that I really wanted to make sure, you know, shine through in the book. And, and we’ve, you know, made a conscious effort at the very beginning to be a business book that you know, necessarily broaden these different perspectives.

Because we both feel, you know, you read, you know, the business books of, of today it tends to be very iterative and it’s like business cases upon business, cases upon business cases. And there can be this sort of percussive element to all of it. And unless books and ideas are availed of, of different perspectives, we can’t think in, in different, in more creative ways.

And so that was a very sort of conscious effort we made very early on. And that was you know, sort of one throughline that was a big sort of incumbent on contribution to the book to make sure that and then, you know, Tess with, you know, business expertise, you know, really made sure all these insights were, you know, not only clear, but also very pragmatic.

It was not a book about highfalutin ideas. It didn’t live in the world of, of abstractions in theory, but you could, as a business practitioner really at any level, you know, read a chapter and know specifically how to apply this. What would you add there, Tessa?

Tessa Misiaszek: No, I mean, I think that that’s, that’s really what the process was. It’s interesting, I think back, I think maybe it was four or five years ago that Matt and I were sitting at Ashridge, which is part of the whole international business school campus and outside of London. And we were having this big discussion around empathy.

We had both done work with thought leaders in the field of empathy, but they were opposing views. And I think that conversation kind of spurred us to, to explore doing some writing together and just realizing that we did have this complementary perspective, experience. And I think when we, when it comes down to your point around the humanism that we want to bring back to business And to bring that social psychology lens to thinking about business, which is more important today than ever before, that we felt like this was a, we were a good compliment to each other in our, our expertise and experience.

Matt Johnson: Yeah, I think, Oh yeah. Just, just to add to that, I think going back to our, our original, like the first conversation Tessa and I ever had in person, we knew of each other as colleagues. I was on the San Francisco campus at the time. Tesla was on the Boston campus. We’ve met in Ashridge. I think the first ever conversation we had in person was like an argument.

And it was about empathy and it was sort of diving into you know, the science of empathy and its applications for, for business and marketing. And we again, as Tessa mentioned, came from these like polar opposite perspectives. And so we had an argument, it was very, you know, perspective, civil, you know, this argumentation.

And I think that was a good sort of prelude for how we’d sort of approach the book. Because, you know, there’s no clear consensus in the world of branding and business of how a brand should go about this. There’s no direct playbook. If it was easy, all brands would do it. And if all brands did it, they couldn’t differentiate.

So of course you have to be creative. There has to be differences there. And I think having, you know, a healthy working relationship where we can have disagreements and argue and go back and forth, and then of course, in the end come out very consistently in the writing. So that initial conversation, argumentative over cocktails, was sort of a good prelude for how the book would be written.

Alison Jones: So basically it came out of creative conflict, fuelled by cocktails. Marvellous. That’s a great recipe for a good book, isn’t it? But also you articulate something really, really important there, which is the blending. And I think this is, it’s one of the reasons I love business books so much.

It’s really kind of a characteristic of business books is that blending of the research and the practice, the theory and the practical kind of application of it. And it’s really interesting that you see that, that as part of your, the characteristics of how you work together as well.

Matt Johnson: Absolutely.

Tessa Misiaszek: I was just going to say it’s interesting because I, where Matt comes from a much stronger, longer academic background, I didn’t enter academia until I was about 15, 16 years, you know, in the corporate world and having created some startups and so forth. So I think just even our different experiences and the types of expertise that we brought to the table really allowed us to blend, I think.

What I’m most proud of as it relates to the book is that I’ve had several people say to me, I can’t tell who’s writing is whose where, where Matt begins, where, where Tessa begins. And I, I think that’s really a credit to our editor Claire, who, who really guided us through the process.

But it also was probably six or seven iterations of every chapter, going back and forth to make sure we were coming out with one voice, but with multiple perspectives and lenses that were allowing us to create a, a more complex or dynamic you know centering on the book.

Alison Jones: Well, lift the lid on that black box for us. Will you tell us a little bit more about, you know, how did it start? How did you work out the, the whole structure of the book and then as you write each chapter, the toing and froing, I’m just always fascinated just how people work together.

Matt Johnson: Yeah. So I think you know, the general strategy, I think we wanted to have sort of a broad sort of template of, of sort of, this is the roadmap for the book. So if we’re thinking about just sort of in, in branding terms, right? You have a marketing plan, sort of the brand goals, the brand strategy, and then sort of the tactics of how you execute on it.

And I think that was just our, our intuitive structure for how we approach the book. So we thought about, you know, what’s the goals for. Book, Like how do we want to position it, you know, in the market, how do we want it to be different, you know, what are the broad sort of strategic goals for it? And then the strategy was sort of our, sort of our general outline that if we’re going to be, you know, this position, the market, it has to be you know, this level of, of sort of you know, synonymous with what existing literature and there has to be some sort of overlap. And then how is it going to be different instead of we, you know, put that into our, our general template of all of the different chapters. And that eventually evolved into the three sections of the book, sort of the first one about sort of setting the stage, the second about strategy and the third about sort of how brands can go above and beyond using, in particular social psychology and, and social neuroscience.

And so I was maybe a little bit more involved, Tess you can you can push back if you disagree, maybe a little bit more involved in some of the setting up of the general sort of structure of all of that and sort of the initial sort of skeleton. And then as we got into it you know, Tessa had a much bigger role in sort of, you know, filling it in, in terms of the, the meat and the tendons and guess going into this metaphor, all of the you know, all of the organs and all of the, you know, all of, all of that good stuff that us as humans need and, and the book ultimately needed.

So I think that was sort of, you know, generally the process. What would you add to that, Tessa?

Tessa Misiaszek: Yeah, I completely agree. And you know, I have to acknowledge my family who allowed me to write probably every Sunday for a year because we were working full time and it was, we had different moments, different periods of time where we were teaching a lot, in which case one person might do a lot more writing and then, you know, send over 50 pages to the other person, and then that person would kind of, you know, dive into it, change it a lot, and then it would go back and forth.

But I do think that there were some really pivotal moments in our writing process. I think about the brand activism chapter. It almost did not make it in. We had a long, I think month, months-long debate around do we include brand activism or not? Are we playing into the rhetoric that we’re hearing in media?

You know, what is our perspective on this? How are we going to write about brand activism in a way that’s really strategic and meaningful? And so I think that we probably iterated that chapter two or three times. It came out at one point and then it went back in and I just, I think it was the, the thoughtfulness that went into.

Really making sure that if we were saying something, first of all, that we had the courage to say what we felt we needed to say. And also that we were adding in the components that made the book relevant today. And I’m, today I’m so glad that chapter’s in and I’m so glad that we took the perspective, which is not necessarily, you know, cave to the consumer and, you know, given in to cancel culture, but that we did provide examples that as long as you’re strong in your brand values, your core, your purpose, and as long as you’re transparent with the consumer about the journey that you’re on, that really the consumer is quite open for giving and understanding of the fact that brands like people make mistakes, can evolve over time and so forth.

So I think that process of us going back and forth debating it and then really being reflective of what we wanted the book to be was what I think made the book really meaningful and relevant today.

Alison Jones: And it’s really interesting hearing you both talk about it from a marketing perspective. And I’ve noticed this before when I talked to people who’ve written marketing books, because they are, they know that they’re creating a product. and they’re going through all the strategic thinking that you have to go through when you create a project and you know, what are we going to engage with and what’s, what’s the brand of this book and what’s the tone and how do we make that connection with the reader?

So yeah, it’s really fascinating listening to that. What was, I mean, given that you have both done, I’m sure a lot of writing separately, what was the most interesting thing you noticed about writing with someone else? Could be, could be positive, could be negative, could be challenge, could be something that delighted you.

Tessa Misiaszek: Could I take this one first, Matt? I will say I am much more of a boring technical writer. And I continue to take writing courses to try to make… to add more detail, to add more sensory, to add more setting to, to really try to improve my storytelling. I have to give total kudos and props to my partner here who had the best metaphors and some really fantastic storytelling, great examples that he brought to every chapter. And so where I was probably more of a boring business writing technical writer who was trying to get, yes, but we need the brand strategy piece in there. He definitely brought I think made it interesting. And I think the blend of the two allows the book to be very practical but also interesting to read.

I keep telling my friends and family, you’ll like the book even if you’re not a marketing major…

Alison Jones: It’s not like that monograph I wrote last year. It’s very different…

Tessa Misiaszek: Exactly. So

Alison Jones: …so funny…

Tessa Misiaszek: …sorry, Matt, I kind of spoke first, but I just wanted to give you props on that front.

Matt Johnson: No, not at all. That, that’s, that’s very flattering. I think on the, on the other side, you know, I think we were a bit, sort of like yin yang there, where sort of my natural, you know, style is, is to be kind of these like sprawling New Yorker style pieces of like these interesting stories that, that I would like to read about and that I would want to, you know, tell somebody about it, a cocktail party sort of thing. And then I think Tessa’s natural sort of instincts as a writer is to, you know, again, what’s the pragmatics, what’s the structure, what’s the central insights that a business practitioner, you know, needs to get out of these chapters, that they want to apply it.

And so I think, you know, ultimately when those two styles converge, I think we have, you know, a relatively entertaining read, but also of course, you know, tethered to the, the pragmatism of the material. So I, you know, in the end the blends, you know, really came out, came out nicely.

Alison Jones: Well, you, and you make it sound like a wonderful, harmonious process. But I mean, the wonderful thing about that is you do, you know, you get the, it’s more than some of the parts because you complement each other in your book. But it also, right back to that first conversation you had, you know, there’s, there’s tension and there’s conflict in there.

So managing that as a writing team, I think there are people who are completely on the same page. They finish each other’s sentences, and that’s a really pleasant writing experience. Probably less great for the reader. So yeah, really interesting And I’m going to ask you both and I don’t mind who takes it first, if you had to give one tip to somebody who’s just about to start writing their business book, what would it be given where you are now?

Matt Johnson: I would say don’t be boring and, and have fun with it. So be a, be a book that people want to read. I think, you know, there’s a lot of great information out there, whether it’s the internet or whether it’s other books or it’s eBooks. I mean, there’s no shortage of insights, you know, out there in the world and people can get insights, you know, from a range of, of different factors.

But I think, you know, the, the authors that I, I really look up to, you know, in the field both give us those insights but find sort of entertaining ways to deliver it. And, and more and more I think we’re learning that that has a pragmatic purpose as well. Because when we are, are sort of couching these ideas within an interesting story and find interesting metaphors and analogies to tie it to that person’s life, and sometimes in popular culture, that you know, it’s really going to stick in, in the mind of the reader. So yeah, that would be sort of my, my sort of recommendation there.

Alison Jones: It’s a great… it takes quite a lot of nerve, doesn’t it? Because it’s not just saying what you know to be true. It’s kind of being more consciously stylistic about how you do that, which is kind of next level thing. But it’s a great piece of advice and you’re right. It’s so much more sticky.

Thanks, Matt. What about you, Tessa?

Tessa Misiaszek: I, you know, it’s, it’s interesting because I had a professor when I was writing my dissertation who I told her I was blocked, and I wasn’t quite sure where to go with it. And she said, Stop writing and start reading. Just read, read, read, read, and then, you know, the writing will, the ideals will start to percolate and then the writing will come.

And so I do say that to a lot of my students and doctoral students who I’ve worked with that. Don’t, I think everyone tries to create this practice of writing and every day I’m going to sit down, I’m going to write, and they stare at the blank page and it’s intimidating and so forth. I always suggest read something first and then write about it, right?

And continue that type of process. Don’t let yourself just be blocked and, but if you can’t think of something to start to write about, then start reading and the ideas will start to come to you.

Alison Jones: You’re almost creating your own co-creation chamber there, aren’t you? just getting, getting other ideas in and riffing off them. Yeah. Brilliant advice. And again, I always ask guests to recommend a business book. You’re not allowed to recommend your own, sorry. But is there a book that is particularly helpful or has been particularly helpful to you or you think people listening should read if they haven’t already?

Matt Johnson: So the one I would recommend is, is one I read recently, and it’s not sort of strictly a, a business book, but I think it has really strong business implications. So it’s exactly the kind book that I would want to read as I’m preparing to write a book and bringing different perspectives in. And this is Michelle Gelfand’s Rule Makers, Rule Breakers.

So she’s a professor at at Stanford University, and she’s really pioneered this entire framework about how we could understand different cultures. And of course, cultures are incredibly idiosyncratic and unique and, and wonderful in their own right, and we can also understand them on certain dimensions.

And the dimensions that she’s pioneered with her incredible academic work is this idea of tight and loose cultures, sort of strict adherence to social norms in the case of tight culture. And then relatively loose sort of social norms when it comes to loose cultures and not a lot of sort of consequences for breaking these, these social norms.

And she’s done this incredible work where she looks at sort of how consistent public publicly facing clocks are in any different culture. And she finds this incredible range when it comes to tight and lose culture. So you look at like a very tight culture like Switzerland for example, and like all of the clocks are like exactly the same time, the trains run exactly at the same time.

And Japan is another great example of that. And then you looked at a very loose culture like Brazil and like nobody actually knows what time it’s at any given time. Like there’s the no consistency in terms of publicly facing clocks. You walk into a shop and it’s one time, you walk to the clock and it’s 10 minutes later, 10 minutes earlier.

And she makes very clear in the book that there’s no such thing as, you know, it’s not tight cultures are good and loose cultures are bad. They all have, you know, different ways of, of giving rise to human flourishing, whether it be creativity or business or GDP. But it’s a really important dimension for to understand human diversity when it comes to culture so incredibly relevant to businesses and one that I would encourage readers to take a look at.

Alison Jones: Yeah. Brilliant. And I know of the book, but I’ve never read it, so thank you. That’s a, that was a really good prompt for me. Wonderful. What about you, Tessa?

Tessa Misiaszek: It is, this was a hard question because I was trying to think, oh gosh, what book has been impactful to me lately? But I would say I recently read Disruption Proof by Brant Cooper. He’s an American author and he does a lot around talking about entrepreneurship. And his latest book is really focused on post pandemic kind of thinking about the workplace, workplace culture, the integration between that and, and creating, not just creating a brand, but creating a product or a service that’s really going to continue to be innovative and disruptive when you’re already dealing with a lot of disruption within the workplace. So he has fantastic tips around having remote work culture and how to manage that, how to manage teams, how to kind of bring the humanism and the personal back into Zoom culture and so forth. So he’s an author I recently read that I thought was really impactful.

Alison Jones: Brilliant, and I don’t know that one, so thank you. Wonderful. I always love getting a recommendation. I don’t know. Thank you so much. And if you want to find out more about you both, Tessa I’ll stay with you for a second. If people want to find out more about you and the work you do, where should they go?

Tessa Misiaszek: Absolutely. So I do, I have my own podcast as you mentioned, which is called The Happy at Work Podcast. So after they listen to your podcast, they can come over and, and listen. And then as I’m, as you had mentioned in my bio, I’m now the head of research with the Korn Ferry Institute. And so through LinkedIn or Korn Ferry dot com, you can find.

Alison Jones: Wonderful. Thank you. What about you, Matt?

Matt Johnson: So probably the best place is my website, which is mattjohnsonisme.com. So a very common name, Matt Johnson. Matt johnson.com has been taken, it was like one of the first domains probably on the internet that was taken. But

Alison Jones: He said bitterly…

Matt Johnson: Oh yeah, don’t even me started on my email handle. I’ve to be creative when it comes to email. So yes, Mattjohnsonisme.com and then handles on, on LinkedIn and on Twitter is @MattJohnsonisme.

And yeah, look forward to continuing the conversation there.

Alison Jones: Brilliant, thank you. And you are speaking to a Jones, so yeah, I totally feel your pain, which Tessa won’t understand at all, but…

Tessa Misiaszek: That’s, but no one would be able to spell my url. So, that’s a problem.

Alison Jones: That’s the opposite end of the spectrum of issues, isn’t it? Yeah. Brilliant. Well, it’s such a joy talking to you both and really fascinating to hear about the, the marketing, the branding dimensions, but also the, the way that you brought those two different perspectives and wo them together into something so readable.

So yeah, firstly, congratulations on that, really. But thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a real joy.

Tessa Misiaszek: Thank you.

Matt Johnson: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

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