Episode 362 – Pay the Price with Steven Adjei

Steven Adjei‘A lot of writers tend to shy away from the gritty parts of [entrepreneurship], the pain parts, the price part. I thought, Why not, I’m going to go for it. So I did.’

If you’re an entrepreneur, you’ll know about the price that you pay each day to sustain your enterprise: sometimes gladly, sometimes reluctantly, sometimes without even realising it. And you’ll also know about the pain that’s often involved. But did you realize that there are different types of pain, and that they demand different things of you? 

In this deeply personal and practical conversation, Steven Adjei offers a thoughtful way of assessing and responding to these various different kinds of entrepreneurial pain. We also discuss the too-often unheard lessons from African entrepreneurs, how to enrich the prose of a business book with poetry and music, and the vital importance of balancing compassion and competence. 



Steven’s site: https://www.stevenadjei.com/

Steven on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-n-adjei-0827a51b/

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Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

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Alison Jones: I am here today with Steven Adjei who is a British Ghanaian author, poet, healthcare consultant and entrepreneur. He’s the founding partner of Blue Cloud Health, a UK-based African-focused healthcare firm that exists to provide solutions to health businesses in Sub-Saharan Africa, he’s an award-winning consultant pharmacist, and he’s also the author of Pay The Price: Creating ethical entrepreneurial success through passion, pain and purpose.

So first of all, welcome Steven. It’s really, really good to have you here,

Steven Adjei: Thank you so much. Alison, I’m really privileged to be here today.

Alison Jones: Well, we are privileged to have you. And first, I want to start with that… you’ve sort of gone against all conventional wisdom, and I love it, in your title, because you use words that you aren’t supposed to use in a title. You use words like paying price and pain and all that kind of stuff. So tell me, where are you coming from?

Steven Adjei: Obviously I’ve read a lot of books on entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship I know personally and with other people, I know there seems to be a disparity between the two. So most books talk about the formula, isn’t it? You have your passion, you have your purpose, and you do this and that, and that and that, and that comes out at the end, you know?

But my experience wasn’t like that and a lot of people I spoke to didn’t have the same experience, and I think, like you said, a lot of writers tend to shy away from the gritty parts of it, the pain parts, the price part. Why not, I’m going to go for it. I’m going to be the first person to go for it. So I did.

I mean, I thought, I wanted to tell a real story of what people should expect because it sounds cheesy, but I always get a sense of sadness whenever I see a business fail. I feel personally sad. And I was so close to failure and I know exactly how it feels like, so I wanted to get out a real story, and that’s why I used the title.

Alison Jones: I am imagining a lot of people resonate with that as well because you know, we don’t talk about it and we certainly don’t celebrate it. Oh, that’s the wrong word. But you know what I mean. We don’t, we don’t acknowledge it. The centrality of that kind of pain. And you talk about different kinds of pain.

Tell us your taxonomy of pain.

Steven Adjei: So I realize that we all feel pain and the feeling is the same. Okay. But a bit like you Alison, I journal a lot, I did a lot of journaling through the hard times, which I’m sure I’ll talk about later. We’ll talk about it when it come to writing. But I did a lot of writing when I was going through pain and I was going through my journals over the last two or three years, and I realized that the pain came from four different sources.

And so I colour coded them. So I have what you call red flag pain, okay. And I call them using the traffic light system, which is easy to remember. So when you’re driving Alison, and you get to a red flag, a red light, you stop, don’t you? So I call that red flag pain. The pain of self-sabotage. Okay?

And I’ll be honest, I think it’s good to be honest and transparent. My pain was pornography. So anytime I went through a bad patch and I went through several bad patches. I just went to pornography as a source of relief. But I realized that over the time I was doing it, my performance as an entrepreneur was getting worse and worse.

My marriage was declining. I was becoming more of a worse person, and I felt that pain. That pain was coming from a red flag, which was in my case, pornography. I mean, I’ve spoken to hundreds of entrepreneurs over the years and some of them have different ones. Some of gambling, alcoholism and procrastination, all sorts.

So that’s what you call red flag pain and the antidote to that is just to stop. Okay. Obviously.

Alison Jones: It’s quite simple.

Steven Adjei: Summarize it, obviously I talk about more about stopping in the book, but it comes down to stopping. The second pain is amber flag pain. So amber flag pain is when you are driving and you get to a traffic light and it’s amber. It means you have to wait. And that pain comes from waiting. Sometimes things that you have to wait for is outside of your control.

 I had this funny thing from a friend of mine in Africa who said that if you go around impregnating six women, it’ll still take nine months for the baby to come out each time, it doesn’t get any quicker if you, if you still, I know it’s quite…

Alison Jones: …more complicated, but no quicker.

Steven Adjei: I know that’s quite crude but it made quite a small point.

I mean some things take time and no matter how you try to rush the process, or force the process, there’s always a waiting period. Many of us fail because we can’t wait long enough. I mean, I was listening to Steven Barlett the other day and he was saying that sometimes, in most cases, it’s a 10-year waiting period to really see proper success, lasting success. It can take up to 10 years. And many entrepreneurs quit after the third, fourth, fifth year because they feel like they don’t getting success.

The third pain is what I call white flag pain and white flag pain is the pain of surrender. Okay, so, in my case, for instance, I have epilepsy. Okay. I have really bad epilepsy and I get fits quite often.

Alison Jones: Often when you’re driving.

Steven Adjei: When I’m driving. I’ve had fits when I’m driving, obviously I can’t drive now cause of that.

I’ve had fits in a bath. Actually, the funny thing is my book Pay the Price came out of a fit. I mean, I was upstairs and I had a massive fit, fell down the stairs, really injured myself, and I’ve had to surrender. I’ve been to a hospital. They’ve done all sorts of tests. They’ve done all sorts of, they do everything and I started have the fits.

And so that pain comes from something I cannot control. Something that’s outside your control. And that’s what I call the white flag pain. I call it white flag because you have to surrender and that comes in various ways. You can be a woman, for instance, in a male dominated area. Okay? Now you need to accept that, of course, you win the war, of course you win the battle. You’ll win eventually but it comes from accepting the fact that you’re a woman. Or many other things. Maybe if you’re an African, it comes from accepting the fact that you’re African. So some things will take longer, you know?

So some things in life are not your fault, and it comes from accepting that it’s not your fault. Life is unfair and then you have to move on with where you go.

And then the last pain I talk about, is the green flag pain. Now, green flag pain comes from what people tell you or what you tell yourself. Okay? So people may say, you’re not good at what you’re doing. This plan will never work. It’s rubbish, it’ll never work. And you tend to believe it, and that causes pain, okay? Sometimes the pain comes because the people that are telling you that this won’t work could be your spouse, it could be your best friend, it could be your coach, you know, and that causes pain.

And you go on, you go about with self doubt. Thinking, oh, this is never going to work. You feel pain because somebody said it’s not going to work, but I call it green, because you shouldn’t listen to that pain. You keep going.

Alison Jones: Yes.

Steven Adjei: So these are the forces of pain that we all face. And our success as an entrepreneurs or business owners largely depends on how we respond to that kind of pain.

Alison Jones: It’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because of course, I recognize, and I’m sure everybody listening will recognize, every one of those kinds of pain. I’m not sure that all of us have been quite so thoughtful about classifying them and about noticing how actually the response to the different kinds needs to be different because they just all feel very unpleasant, but actually they’re really qualitatively different.

Steven Adjei: Exactly. Exactly. And I think the more complex thing, sometimes they’re intertwined. You know, I talk about an instance where somebody said something that was really hurtful to me once, I came home that day feeling very, very upset, obviously. Because I was so upset, my brain went into reverse gear and then obviously I end up in red flag pain, me go into the pornography. And then because I went into the pornography, the next day I had a call. I didn’t sleep well, I missed that call, which obviously went into amber flag pain, I had to wait longer. You know, so these things, sometimes they spiral if you’re not careful.

Alison Jones: They come in combination.

Steven Adjei: Exactly.

If you don’t take, and you talk about this in your book Alison, but sometimes sitting down and writing things out makes you realize, this is what I face, this is what happened to me, and that’s why I’m doing this. And until you sit down and self-reflect and actually write it down. It’s very difficult and you go on like a hellish chicken, trying to put out the fire.

Alison Jones: Well, I now have a new prompt, Steven. I’m going to be asking myself, what colour pain is this, when something’s happening? I think that’s a really, yes, it’s a thoughtful way of looking at it, isn’t it?

Steven Adjei: Yes, absolutely.

Alison Jones: Yes and you also, I think very helpfully, classify or sort of break down the different types of entrepreneurship and I just love, I wanted to talk to you about writing because there’s so much to talk about actually, the way you’ve done the book. But just before we do that, just give us your sort of theory of entrepreneurship.

Steven Adjei: Okay. So for me, I think I mean Simon Sinek and I’m not someone to challenge someone, Simon Sinek is very popular writer, but I think starting from who is crucial. You need to start from who you are as a person, because I said in the book that if you have a bad apple tree, you can never have good fruits. Okay?

So for me to be an entrepreneur or an ethical one, which we all should aspire to be, is five things that we need to look out for. And all of those five things together will make you an ethical entrepreneur. So the first thing I talk about is stewardship. Okay. Stewardship means there comes a time in your life where you have to hand over a button.

So if you start a business or you start a movement, that doesn’t go on forever, and it means distancing yourself as a human being from what you’ve done. And it comes to a time where you, I mean, you probably read about the former Disney boss who went back, retired, went back. Because he thought, you know, there comes a time where you’ve expired, basically, to put it quite crudely.

And a lot of entrepreneurs don’t do this very well. And this is where I have a lot of praise for women leaders. You’ve seen this in Nicola Sturgeon, in New Zealand, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, who know that, right, I’ve come to the end of my thing, I need to pass away the button.

And a lot of entrepreneurs don’t get this, and they don’t steward properly and then they run into problems. The second thing is your identity, okay. So again, it comes down to the same thing. You should know who you are, what makes you tick, and realize that your identity is not tied to the business. They are two separate things.

 And the third thing is also purpose, which Simon Sinek talks about in this book Start With Why, why are you doing this? What is the purpose behind what you’re doing? And the fourth thing I talk about is the trail. So the trail basically is what are you leaving behind you when you’re doing your job?

And I break it down into compassion and competence. So your trail should be compassionate, you should be good to the people you’re working with, good to your customers, good to your clients, but also you should be competent. And many of us err on one side. Some people are too competent and they don’t have any compassion, and some people are too compassionate and don’t have any competence.

So the trail means that when people look, when you look behind you, you should have that trail and that actually came to me when I had a fit and I fell down the stairs. You know, when I look back, I could see a trail of disaster, you know, and that’s a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, wherever they go when you look behind them is just chaos, disaster, broken relationships. And that is one thing that we should not do as entrepreneurs.

And the final thing I talk about is stickability which means you should, I mean, you know Angela Duckworth, she’s talking about grit. You need to commit and you need to persever. So these five things are things which I think as an entrepreneur, as an ethical entrepreneur, you should have.

And if you don’t have these five things you’re bound to fail at some point and all failures of identity of an entrepreneurship come from one of these five things.

Alison Jones: Yes, it’s brilliant and I particularly love competence and compassion as being yoked together and a balance. I mean, they’re not mutually exclusive in any way, but that sense that actually one without the other is pretty useless really if you’re going to be an entrepreneur who’s actually going to make a difference.

Steven Adjei: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Alison Jones: One of the things that really strikes anybody reading your book is, I mean, you start with some of your own poetry and there’s a Spotify playlist that accompanies it and I’m really interested in the way that you have enriched what can be quite a dry form, the business book. I mean, I love business books, but you know, let’s face it, an awful lot of them are pretty dry, and brought in poetry, which, you know, if anybody was to draw a sort of graph of types of writing, they’d probably be on completely opposite ends of any sort of spectrum. And you’ve brought in that idea about the Spotify playlist that accompanies it.

I mean, you are a poet obviously, as well as as an entrepreneur and an author, but where did that come from and why did you think it was important?

Steven Adjei: Yes, I got the idea because I realized two things. So the first thing was I tend to turn to music and all of us do, don’t we, when we are going through troubled times. We’ll have a favorite artist that we listen to. And also music has the ability to transport you into time. So when I listen to a, a particular kind of music, it takes me back to where I was.

So it means that way you listen to music, it has the effect that sometimes words don’t have, you know, so when you write a book and there’s the music to go with it, and you listen to that music that instantly transports you to the point where you’re reading the book or to where you were.

Okay. Now I have a, my favorite band is a band called Switchfoot. And they played a song called Vice Verses. Okay, now, Vice Verses basically means that your vice is your verse. The weak parts of you are also the good parts of you. And for me, my vices were literally my verses.

So the bad parts of me are what prompted me to write the book. So every time I hear Vice Verses anywhere, played anywhere on the radio or in the car or wherever I am, it instantly transports me to that thing, so music has that kind of, of it is able to take you to places where just words can’t do, you know, there’s an emotional component.

And actually you talk about that in your book quite well Alison, I mean about the chimp, you know, the human, the chimp. Yes, so music has that ability to transport you to a place where just words can’t. So I thought that if people listen to the music and they read a book at the same time, that they’re able to be transported to a place which just the book cannot do.

And that’s why I, and same with the poetry, that’s why I put them all together.

Alison Jones: I mean, personally, I can’t do it. I tried, I did try listening to the playlist while reading the book, but I can’t listen to music with words as I read. My brain…

Steven Adjei: No

Alison Jones: … can’t it, which such a shame. But I did listen to the playlist separately and I really enjoyed it.

Steven Adjei: The intent was not to listen to them together. My intent was when you have the playlists and, I mean some of the, not all the music is to everyone’s taste, but the intent is for you to build your playlist yourself, your own playlist personal to you. You know, I recently came out from an NHS training, yesterday or the day before, where they used Brené Brown’s book Dare to Lead.

Alison Jones: Yes.

Steven Adjei: You know that book, obviously, and they used that for training for NHS staff and they were all encouraged to build their own playlists. You know, what spoke to them about leadership, and there were quite a few interesting songs that people put in there. People put I Want to Break Free by Queen, I think it’s by Queen, and all sorts of music that to them symbolize the kind of leadership that they want to do.

And so anytime they listen, that person listens to I Want to Break Free, that will remind them of the training, remind them of everything they’ve been taught. You know, it’s a very quick way.

Alison Jones: Yes, I love that, because what it’s doing is it’s tapping into a very emotional part of you, which, you know, words of are quite a sort of late development for our brains, aren’t they? Whereas music is a much more foundational piece. It’s also, you can personalize it so much more.

So yes, you’ve given us your playlist and it’s great. But actually that sense that you can almost lock an idea to a song and then that takes you to, that’s a really interesting way of looking at it.

Steven Adjei: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Alison Jones: The poetry, I guess, well, I’ve got so much to ask you about this, but I’m framing a question. I think it’s something about: how does being a poet change how you write when you’re writing prose and particularly business books?

Steven Adjei: Yes, it’s a very interesting question and I had a lot of problems with my editor about this because he was always complaining to me that Steven, how am I going to edit this? And when I took it for publishing, they were continually complaining because they couldn’t edit.

You know, when it comes to poetry, it is what it is, you can’t edit, you can’t change it. So for me, I thought, again, it comes down to the creativity part of it, which I think, which you said in your book again, is trying to unlock the part of your brain that you don’t engage when you’re reading a business book.

So my favorite poet is Yrsa Daley-Ward and her book of poems is called Bone and for red flag pain, for instance, she spoke about, the name of the poem is very interesting. It says things that, I can’t remember the actual, 20 things that over time it takes a bad liver to work out, something like that.

And she said something interesting, that the person that hates themselves will always be you, you know, and that’s what she said, and I said, look, I highly recommend it, I mean, even if you’re not into poetry, because for me it broke down red flag pain for me to understand. And it said that it talks about the trap in your eye and the word in your mouth.

You know the trap in your eye is what you see, isn’t it? So when you see something, it’s a trap. You know, in my case that resonated with me because with pornography, it’s what you see and that traps you. So she said, the thing that will always destroy you is the trap in your eye, the red in your eye, and the trap in your mouth.

For a lot of us, the red flag pain is what we say. You say things that you regret. You know, you hear things that you regret. So again, the poetry, from my point of view, was able to bring an imaginative part of your brain, which you don’t really engage. And my goal was to get people to engage with a book in a different way than just reading facts and figures and statistics and stuff like that.

You want to get people to engage with the book in a visceral way, you know, inside you so that you can carry with you. I just give that example in my book, but I want to encourage all people who are entrepreneurs, business people, whether they’re writing articles or whether they’re writing anything at all to try and bring that into play.

 I mean I write a newsletter which goes out to a thousand people and all my newsletters that I send out, there’s always a track in arts and that grabs you. I mean, I did one last week called the Dark Side, which is on LinkedIn and I met this fascinating artist in New Delhi in India. And that’s her theme, the dark side. And so the newsletter I did was a figure of a lovely young girl on one side. So it’s a face, but it’s a lovely one girl on one face. And the other side is an old, wrinkly, ugly man together and when you see the picture, is the dark side. So it means that woman, that lady, that lady has a dark side and that automatically resonates, you know, so it’s a matter of getting people to viscerally understand and move where you go rather than just words on the page.

Alison Jones: Yes, there’s that visceral dimension, that emotional connection and there’s also something about the way that you, as a poet, I think, are aware of the effect that you can have with words. And there’s the way that words can create visual pictures that, as you say, are much more striking and memorable than simply putting facts down on the page.

 It’s really interesting when you read it.

Steven Adjei: Absolutely.

Alison Jones: One of the other things that I particularly noticed about the book, and it’s so refreshing, is that you use lots of stories from Africa. Of course you do, you know, you work a lot in Ghana and elsewhere, but it really struck me that I don’t remember the last time I read an African case study or a story from Sub-Saharan Africa in a business book.

So, tell me a little bit more about that, why it matters, why we need these and, how it felt putting them into a book.

Steven Adjei: Yes, so obviously being British and African, Africa is the most entrepreneurial continent in the world. I don’t know if people know it. So, 27% of women are entrepreneurs in Africa. Huge entrepreneurial continent. And the reason why people are entrepreneurial is because there are so many hardships and people have found ways to circumvent the national way of doing things.

I’ll give an example. So I was a keynote speaker at a conference in London, I think last month, and I met a really interesting guy, who is the marketing manager of a company called Zipline. Now, so one day they were thinking to themselves now the roads in Ghana and as in most African countries are quite bad, especially in the rural areas.

So people die because we cannot get the supplies to them quick enough. Okay, so somebody needs blood. Now there’s lots of blood in say the capital, which is Accra, or Lagos or Abuja or whichever capital you’re talking about. Somebody’s in the rural area and they need blood.

Now, the roads are so bad, there’s no helicopter or planes. So getting their blood to them, by the time you get the blood to them, they are dead basically. So these guys sat together and said and thought, why can’t we use drones? Now how that came to their mind. You know, it’s fascinating. So they figure out a way where they could use drones.

And so now what they do is the drone picks up the blood from the Central Depot in Accra and they can fly the blood to any place within the continent in half an hour. You know, and that comes about because of the hardships of the place. You know, people find a way, and I can give you several examples. I talk about several examples in the book.

Alison Jones: Particularly the one about the Covid response in Africa was fascinating. I’d never heard of it.

Steven Adjei: Yes, yes.

Alison Jones: An…

Steven Adjei: …exactly…

Alison Jones: …amazing example of sort of international collaboration.

Steven Adjei: Yes, exactly, exactly. And we never hear about this. I mean, now, and even the Caribbean countries joined, it was fascinating how it was done and what that was done within three weeks. And obviously that never makes the news. I mean, but that collaboration and people say that Africa largely got away with Covid, you know, it wasn’t as bad as it was in Europe or in America. And people say, oh, it’s because the weather was hot or was because there’s not enough international travel. But Africans were fuming because people went through a lot of things. And that was an example, you know, the collaboration was phenomenal.

Alison Jones: I’m just thinking of after the Y2K thing, when nothing happened and everyone went, oh, well, it wasn’t so bad. And all the programmers were like, do you know why it didn’t go wrong? We spent much making sure didn’t go wrong. Yes.

Steven Adjei: So, yes, exactly, so Africans put in a lot of effort and a lot of work to make sure that… because they knew, Africans knew that if Covid gets to the continent, people are going to die in droves, okay. So they put in very strict and a lot of measures and examples, that I give in the book, the collaboration, to make sure that the Covid doesn’t get to those countries, and obviously that’s why Africa got spared. Obviously there are other factors as well. I mean, the lack of international travel, it’s not so connected to the world. Those are all true.

Alison Jones: But it’s such a brilliant story and such a great example and reading it, I just thought this is a massive blind spot for people in the West reading business books, isn’t it? We just don’t hear enough of these stories. We don’t have this perspective. We need to fix this.

Steven Adjei: Absolutely agree, absolutely agree. And I just feel that because Africa has so much to teach us about entrepreneurship, about resilience, I mean, which is sometimes what we lack here in the West, resilience, innovation, thinking around problems, collaboration. What Africa lacks is the ability to bring those innovations into the mainstream.

So you have a lot of innovations that are on the fringe but Africans lack, well, not Africans, the leaders lack, I would say, the policy frameworks to bring these things into the mainstay. So you have a lot of these innovations, but they’re all on the fringe. So the next challenge for Africa is to bring these actually, so it works for the common man, but for innovations, brilliant. There’s no shortage of them at all.

Alison Jones: Yes, such a great point.

I’ve got an eye on the time, Steven, I’m going to have to start wrapping up, which I’m really cross about because I want to ask you so many more questions. But I wouldn’t be forgiven if I didn’t ask you what I ask every guest on the show. What’s your one best tip for a first time business book author?

Steven Adjei: I’ve thought about this and I think it’s, for me, it is originality. You know, there’s so many books, so many stuff all over the world, that you need to find… and that’s why for me, I went with that because it’s hard out there to get your book out, it is so crowded and there are top books on many, many topics.

I mean, for me, for instance, because I got rejected by 20 different publishers. Mainly because obviously the topic was entrepreneurship. I had no following. I have no following to speak of. And sometimes as well, it’s very rare to have a person of color write a mainstream business book.

People of color are known for writing about race, or a novel, but I think I’m probably the first British, as far as I know, to write a mainstream business book. So those three things together makes it difficult as it is, you know? So if we’re coming out it is not original, then it’s difficult.

So I think when you are writing a business book find a niche where people aren’t talking about, like, for me it’s pain, for instance. And so the originality for me is crucial. You need to find something that’s original, that people are not talking about. We can stand out because it is so crowded out there. As you know, Alison.

Alison Jones: Yes, and not original for the sake of it. I think it’s important to say, isn’t it? It’s got to be something that is really authentic to you.

Steven Adjei: Exactly, exactly. Original and marketable. So I say it’s authentic. So, for me, because I went through the pain, all four kinds of pain. I went bankrupt, I have epilepsy, I crashed two cars. So I had all that stuff. So I was able to write from, like you say, from authenticity, but I was just being brave enough to write about the fact I struggle with pornography or being brave enough to say that I had a fit in the bath and I broke my back, you know?

So it is having the bravery, I’ll say, to write about these things as well.

Alison Jones: Yes, and is there a book that you would recommend that everybody should read? What book has been particularly meaningful to you?

Steven Adjei: That’s a good question as well, I mean, sorry Alison, I have to think about two books.

Alison Jones: You won’t be the first, I’m sure you’ll not be the last.

Steven Adjei: Oh, the first book you mentioned in your book Alison, which is Deep Work by Cal Newport. Absolutely fascinating. And I see this, it’s quite meaningful to me because of the distractions, you know, through your phone, TikTok. And I see sometimes my little girl scrolling through TikTok all the time and we are wiring our brains not to be able to concentrate on things, you know. And so that book for me was revolutionary. The fact that you can block out everything. I’m writing my second book now and that book is revolutionary. I can block out everything, go for an hour, as to go and just do deep work.

And the second book as well is Factfulness by Hans Rosling. It’s not particularly a business book, but I was blown away by how simple that it felt that the world is getting better and how you use simple statistics to prove that point. I mean I’ve read it so many times, I love the book and those are the two main books I recommend. I’m sorry I couldn’t…

Alison Jones: The great Hans Rosling, yes, I remember watching his TED talk and just being absolutely blown away with what he could do with figures and visualizing data and yes, that’s a great recommendation. Well, two great recommendations. Thank you.

Fantastic and Steven, if people want to find out more about you, more about the work that you do, more about the books that you are writing, have written, where should they go?

Steven Adjei: So I have a website, which is my name, so stevenadjei.com. I’m also quite active, as you know, Alison, on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn and Twitter are my preferred, well Facebook as well. So LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook are my preferred social media. But my website is stevenadjei.com. I also have a newsletter, which is free, comes out every two weeks, which is based on the principles of the book, which is free as well.

Alison Jones: And I’ll put those links up as always on the show notes @extraordinarybusinessbooks.com.

But Steven, thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you today.

Steven Adjei: Wonderful, and thank you so much, Alison. Absolute privilege. Thank you so much.


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