Episode 38 – How to be Really Productive with Grace Marshall

Grace MarshallI’m fed up with saying, ‘I haven’t got enough time. I want to have a different conversation about time.’

Grace Marshall was naturally disorganised, but also incurably impatient. She therefore decided the only way to make sure she was able to develop her business while raising a young family was to get really, really good at managing her time more effectively.

She got so good at it that she became the first female Productivity Ninja with Think Productive and has written two books on the subject. As you might expect, she has some kick-ass tips for writers to overcome procrastination and get the book written (and you’ll be glad to hear she found it hard too!).

Essential listening for anyone who has ‘write book’ on their to-do list.

LINKS

website: http://grace-marshall.com/

Grace on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GraceMarshall

Alison Jones:  Hello, and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book club. Today, I’m here with Grace Marshall who’s a productivity coach, a trainer, a speaker on productivity and the author of two books, including How To Be Really Productive, which is the one that we’re going to be focusing on today. She’s also … and I love this title … the first female productivity ninja. She works with Graham Allcott who’s a former guest on the show and she says that it was impatience that drove her to get good at getting things done, which resonates with me. Hello, Grace!

Grace Marshall:         Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Alison Jones:  Oh, it’s great. I’m really, really pleased you’re on, one of those people I’ve had on my list to approach for ages. It’s great to have you here. I really want to know more about the impatience stuff, so let’s start with your own story. How did you get into the productivity game and why does productivity matter?

Grace Marshall:         I started my own business eight years ago, 2008. My kids are 11 and 7, so my business is kind of like my middle child. I’m actually naturally disorganized, so I wouldn’t have picked productivity or time management as my thing. What I found was that I was in a situation where I was running my own business, growing family, and I just got fed up of saying, “I haven’t got enough time.” A lot of the clients I work with were also in the same situation.

They were people who were juggling business and family and too much to do, not enough time, how I fit it all in was the biggest challenge for them as well. It just got to a point where from a personal and professional point of view, I got to a point where I thought, “I just want to change the conversation. I’m fed up with saying, ‘I haven’t got enough time. I want to have a different conversation about time.'”

I started just answering questions talking about it, tackling that subject but also diving deeper into it. Like I said, I’m naturally disorganized, so my natural default would not be to oh, I’ve got to schedule everything. I’ve got to get really good at being on time and time management and all that kind of stuff. What I tended to go more towards, what I was more attracted towards is how do I make the most of the time I do have rather than feel like I don’t have enough?

When my son when he was little would go for a nap, I knew that I had anything between half an hour and two hours depending on how long he would sleep for. How do I make the most of that kind of window of time so that I don’t feel frustrated, so that I don’t feel like I’m not getting anywhere? It was that, when I said impatience was what drove me to get things done, it was basically I don’t want to put things on hold, so I don’t want to put my whole career on hold or my business on hold while my kids were growing up, but equally, I don’t want to put my family on hold while I try to pursue my business.

It was more out of necessity of going, I want to make it work, so I’ve got to find a way to make it work.

Alison Jones:  That’s so interesting. When you set up your business, obviously, it wasn’t that productivity initially, so what was your original business and when did you make the shift and go, “Actually, do you know what? This is the business I should be in.”

Grace Marshall:         Originally, I trained as a coach, so like a lot of coaches, I start off with basically I can coach anybody on anything. From a coaching skills perspective, that is true, but from a business and marketing perspective, that’s an awful strategy to have because you just end up spreading yourself thin. What I ended up finding through trial and error was a lot of people who I resonate with, who I work best with, all those people, who were trying to make it work and do business and family on their own terms.

The time challenge was the biggest challenge then, and so they kept asking me how do you do it, Grace? How do I do it? How do I make this work? How do I find more time? (as the phrase goes). I got to the point where I just thought, “Just answer the question, Grace; you don’t feel like an expert, but just start answering the question and see where it takes you.” I did. I started specializing more in it. I started running teleseminars on those topics. Then I started getting interviewed on it.

I remember John Williams who wrote the book, “Screw Work Let’s Play,” he invited me to be their parent productivity expert on their 30-day challenge. I think they were the first people to ever call me a productivity expert. Even then I was thinking, who am I to be doing this? But I thought just go with it. If it’s helping someone, just keep doing it. That’s what my mantra is like. If it’s helpful for someone, carry on. If it stops being helpful, I’ll do something else. It carried on being helpful, so I ended up gradually specializing more and more on productivity until I came to point in 2012 when I got the opportunity to write a book.

My first book, which was “21 Ways to Manage the Stuff That Sucks Up Your Time,” I think that’s probably the point where I put my stake in the ground and went, “Okay, this is my thing.”

Alison Jones:  This what they refer to as ‘emergent strategy’ in the game, isn’t it?

Grace Marshall:         Yes, or making it up as you go along.

Alison Jones:  Yeah. Well, that’s kind of the same thing. It’s interesting that you talk about that first book as being the stake in the ground. How did that change things, do you think?

Grace Marshall:         I think it changed things externally and internally. Externally, I wasn’t just another coach who was talking about productivity. I was a productivity author and when we launched the book we got it to number one on Amazon UK for time management, business management, and small business and entrepreneurship. You know it kind of set that external authority, I guess, in terms of saying this is my expertise. This is what I have to say on the subject, and here are a whole lot of people who like what I have to say on it.

I think internally as well it kind of gets you to up your game because I suddenly went: I’ve got a book coming out. I’m going to have to promote it. I’m going to have to do some speaking. I’d done a little bit of public speaking up until then, but more just kind of 10-minute slots at networking meetings. I wasn’t a speaker. I wasn’t a professional speaker at that point, and I thought, “Well, how am I going to promote this book if I’m not going to speak about it?” That kind of launched my speaking career because I realized that I had to do it to promote my book.

Alison Jones:  A great example of that kind of virtuous cycle that a book can create in a business, isn’t it? The book raises the visibility of the business and you have to raise the visibility of the book through the business. Yeah, it’s great, so that’s really interesting. I know also that you work with Graham, with Graham Allcott, and you’re a productivity ninja for him. I thought that was fascinating because the way you’ve combined your own productivity business with working alongside him, I thought that was such a good example of collaboration. In other industries, that might be regarded as competition, but the fact that there’s always space for good ideas and good people I think is one of the hallmarks of writing a book, particularly in this space. Just tell us a little bit more about how that came about and how it works.

Grace Marshall:         Sure, yeah, so it’s interesting because I first met Graham on Twitter. Yeah, we got chatting, and we found that we had a very similar approach to productivity, so we were kind of peers. He was on my ‘brave list’ to ask for endorsements for my first book.

Alison Jones:  Brave list. What a great phrase.

Grace Marshall:         He actually got in touch with me first, so we got in touch and … because he wrote “How To Be A Productivity Ninja” right about the same sort of time that I wrote my first book. He got in touch with me saying, “Would you be interested in reviewing the book?” I thought, “Oh, interesting you should ask that. Would you be interested in endorsing mine?” He was like, “Yeah, sure. As long as I agree with what’s in it, so yeah, send it across.”

We did a manuscript swap, and then he gave me call and said, “Oh, I love it. It’s great,” and so we had a conversation and just went, “Look, there seems to be some really nice areas where we agree on and we have a similar approach. There’s a good kind of synergy going on here. Next time we happened to be in the same city, should we just grab a coffee?” We managed to do that I think in the September after my book launched.

We got together in Birmingham to have a coffee, and it initially it was just about how can we collaborate, find out a little bit more about each other. We were thinking maybe have some guest blog posting or share some more stories on all the niggles and bumps and scrapes we had with Amazon and stuff like that. But what came out of that session or that meeting was when I asked him, “How do you work?” He said, “Well, actually, all of our productivity ninjas are essentially freelancers, so some of them only do productivity workshops, they only do Think Productive work, but some of them also have specializations in other areas, so they do other workshops or other coaching consulting. Then with productivity, they do the Think Productive stuff.”

He said, “Actually, we’re looking for somebody at the moment to be out productivity ninja in the Midlands. Would you be interested?” I thought, “Hmm, that’s an interesting proposition.” I think the biggest conversation we had around that was like how can we make it work so that … because I said, “I’d love to, but I want to give up what I’m currently doing,” so it was like, how do we make it work? I think one of the biggest and one of the things I’m really grateful for is that both Graham and I have a real value in collaboration.

We both really highly value collaborating, so we’re constantly looking for ways of – how do we make this work for both of us? Our partnership has been very much one of looking for how do we give to each other, rather than what can we take from this. That’s been really, really helpful because then it’s not about drawing lines in the sand and going, “Okay, this is it. This fits mine. That fits yours.” It’s more about how can we actually make this work in a really natural way that’s clear for our clients – because if our clients are confused about, well, am I coming to you as Grace or as productivity ninja, then that’s not going to help anybody. Clearness was really important, but also having that kind of … a spirit of collaboration and generosity where it’s about bringing more to the table rather than taking away from each other. I think that’s what really made it work for us.

Alison Jones:  Fantastic. I absolutely love that, and I know a lot of people who would look at someone in their space doing something similar and be concerned by that, see them as competition, be quite anxious about it. I love that you’re demonstrating that kind of openness and collaboration. I think that’s really inspiring and hopefully … There’s so many people who need help with productivity. There is room for everybody here and more.

Grace Marshall:         Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I remember when the second book opportunity came along, and in fact, the opportunity came through Graham. They got in touch with Graham first, so Pearson were looking for someone to write their “Brilliant Productivity” book as part of their Brilliant Series, and they went to Graham first. He said, “Well, actually, I’ve got this relationship with Icon, my current publisher, so it wouldn’t really make sense, but go and talk to Grace.”

He’s the one who introduced Pearson to me, and that’s why my second book came along. I remember having a conversation with him going, “But how will this book be different from your book and my other book?” He went, “Grace, somebody’s going to write this book. If it’s not you, someone else will. There is enough space for another productivity book on the market. Trust me.”

Alison Jones:  Absolutely and that’s such sane words. I think for anybody listening, who does get anxious about competitors and so on, if you reframe that as your peer network – see how that can work for you! That’s really good. Fantastic. Tell us about the actual writing of this book particularly, “How To Be Really Productive.” Why … well, you decided to write it because you got the commission through Graham, but did you find the process easy? Was it a helpful thing for your business? Was it just awful? How was it?

Grace Marshall:         It was interesting. It was actually harder writing the second book than writing the first book. I think it’s because the first book was a very set style. It was 21 ways. It was very short and sweet, and I didn’t feel like I have to write everything I know about productivity. It was just 21 tips. The first book was actually easier. The second book felt harder. It felt like oh, gosh, this is going to be my… At one point, I felt like, yeah, this has got to be everything I know about productivity, because it was a bigger remit.

It was interesting because originally it was pitched as part of a series book, and then it kind of got bigger. They came back and said, “Actually, what you’ve pitched it more than what we would include in a series, but we like what you’ve said, so we want you to write what you’ve got in your voice and with everything that you’ve proposed. It was a big remit and I found that really hard to go, “Well, how do I narrow that down? What exactly do I write?”

When you try and write everything, it’s just a really horrible thing to try and do. For me, it was a hard process, but I think also for me there was a lot of impostor syndrome. The first book it was kind of me. I was writing it for small business owners, and I felt quite comfortable in that space. Whereas, this one was for a wider audience, so it was definitely a step up for me in terms of going, well ,how will this resonate with, yeah, with somebody who’s like me who works in sales compared to somebody who is working in the NHS managing a team of people? It was a wider audience and I found that one harder as well.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, I can imagine.

Grace Marshall:         The actual process of writing was quite a mixed bag. I remember the first chapter that I worked on, which is actually the second chapter in the book now… yeah, the first chapter I worked on was like wading through treacle. It was such hard work. I was kind of nailing myself to the seat going, “Right. Come on. I’ve got to do it.” Just all the way through, I was like, “What am I doing? Is this any good?” All that kind of classic impostor syndrome. Then when I got onto what’s now the third chapter on Mind, Monkeys and Lizard Brain, I had so much fun.

I was writing that one and I was like, “Oh, this is what writing should be like. I’m really enjoying this now.” It was a real roller-coater trip writing that book.

Alison Jones:  That’s so funny. A couple of really practical things for people to take out. One, I never know whether people are going to be encouraged or discouraged by hearing just how hard it is, but hopefully, if you’re struggling, then this sort of thing is encouraging because it’s not just you. Also, I have to say, I started off writing my book, “This Book Means Business,” which is coming out next year, one of the reasons I started the podcast in the first place as kind of everything I know about publishing a book for your business.

And it was awful. I just got so lost and stuck and hated it. I’ve gone the opposite way to you in a sense. I’ve gone back to your first thing of just actually collecting a load of principles together. I’m a reference book publisher and by instinct, that was my first role really in publishing. That’s the way I’ve done it, and it’s so much easier to write. Yes, I’m a coward, but you know what? It’s getting done. If you’re listening and thinking, “Gosh, I am struggling with my book,” a couple of things to try. Make it narrower rather than broader because as Grace says, the broader is harder to do. Also, try that kind of breaking it down into smaller bits where you’re not trying to do everything you know about a subject and link it all together into a seamless narrative, but perhaps doing your tip-based stuff. Depends on what you need to do, but these are all interesting points to bear in mind.

You said something about in your own voice, which I really wanted to pick up on because you have got such a distinctive voice and I love the way that you weave into the book really naturally stories from your own life and particularly things your kids say, which are hilarious. Stories also from other people that you’ve worked with, their tips and principles and so on.

I know from experience of talking to clients, a lot of people struggle with balancing that, their own content and stories from their own life and stories from other people’s lives. How did you make that mix work for you?

Grace Marshall:         I think it comes from my experience as a blogger. I blog a lot. It’s part of my business strategy if you like, and actually, that’s my comfort place. I think the very first thing I did marketing my business was to blog. I think when you’re blogging, often, it is about … It’s short snippets that grab people’s attention. I find that using stories is one of the best ways of doing that because it’s not just about “Here, do this.” Because there are plenty of things out there or plenty of people out there saying, “Well, here’s a tip. Here’s another tip,” but actually, it’s the stories that engage us.

It’s the stories that get us thinking about ourselves and how does that work for me and oh, gosh yeah, I can relate to that. I’ve just found stories really powerful for me in terms of getting my head around something and my own learning as well as in terms of communicating with other people and engaging your audience. I think stories have always been part of my writing strategy. It’s often something that my kids say will prompt me to go, “Oh, yeah. That’s a really good point. That really illustrates that.”

That’s always been how I write and I think when it came to the book, again, that’s my voice, so if I strip all the stories out, then it’s almost like it’s missing something. It’s almost like a phone conversation where you’re only getting half the … you know, if you’re on the train and you’re trying to hear a phone conversation, you can only hear half the conversation. It just doesn’t make sense.

Alison Jones:  I love that, and I love the point about blogging as well as being a way that you can … because I’m blogging every day. I love the fact that actually each blog doesn’t need to be any big deal. There’s a real freedom in that. And you’re right, it allows you to take things out of the thread of life as they go by and just catch them and pull something out of them. Love that. Okay. Tell me …

Grace Marshall:         Just on that point, I was just thinking really that from a privacy point of view, I will say make sure had some people to help read the first drafts and just let me know how it lands and that sort of thing. That was really helpful as well because some people said, “Okay, you’ve got a lot of home stories here. Could we have a few more corporate examples?” “Yeah, okay. Absolutely.” That helped with that balance as well when you need to write balanced.

Also, some of them, a friend of mine went, “Okay, there are a couple of stories here that are a little bit too much information, so you might want to… Your kids might not thank you for that bit.” “Ah, yeah, good point. We’ll take that one out.” I think having a couple of sense checkers is a good idea as well.

Alison Jones:  Good tip. Talking about productivity and writing, the obvious question, are there any productivity issues that are particularly significant for writers? I particularly want to know if you struggled with your own productivity writing this book. I’m very much hoping you’re going to say you did and tell us how you got over it.

Grace Marshall:         Yes, absolutely on both counts. I think for writers especially, it often comes out … It’s procrastination. It’s perfectionism, but it’s also indecision as well, so I think a biggie for writers often is that impostor syndrome that I talked about. It’s the who am I to be writing this book? What on earth do I know? How many books are out there already? All those kind of things basically saying who am I to be doing this. Yeah. I think that’s always a really, really interesting one because the stories we make up in our own heads can be so compelling and often as writers, we’re very good at making up stories.

Our little brains are very creative in that sense, and I think for me, the biggest thing with that impostor syndrome, how I got over it is what I said earlier. If I’m helping somebody, then I’m going to carry on doing it. If it helps someone, keep doing it. It wasn’t about am I going to be the best. It wasn’t about am I saying something completely new and ground-breaking. It was more, OK, nobody’s going to say … I remember somebody saying to me … “Nobody’s going to say it just the way you’re going to say it, Grace.” That’s been something that’s really useful to me, to kind of go, “Actually, even if it’s been said before, if the way that I say it, the voice that I use means that the message lands differently and it means that it lights something in somebody’s head or makes someone feel better, then actually that’s worked and that’s helped.” It doesn’t have to b … Again, I think it’s going back to that competition. I find competition really unhelpful for me when it comes to impostor syndrome and when it comes to writing because comparison can really kill your creativity.

If I can step away from comparison and just go, “Okay, what do I have to say about this topic?” Rather than, what’s the best thing to say, or what’s everything, it’s: what do I have to say and what has my experience been? Sometimes I find as well imagining that you’re just talking to one person rather than to the world helps. If I had a coaching client asking me this question, what would I be saying to them now, right now? So that helps. Yeah, so that’s the impostor syndrome side. The other biggie is procrastination. Particularly for writers, that procrastination comes from it’s a big job.

If you have ‘write book’ on your to-do list, it’s just never going to get done. It’s huge. We tend to procrastinate over the stuff that’s big, boring, or scary. “Write book” is definitely big and scary, so find ways of breaking it down. I remember the first book I wrote I wrote in 40 days. That was partly because I had a crazy deadline from my publisher, which… she then turned around and said, “Oh, actually, I can be flexible on the deadline, Grace. If you need more time, that’s fine.” I was like, “Oh, that’s great, but I’ve made myself publicly accountable now, so I can’t change my mind.”

Accountability works really well, but also I think … For the first book, I basically created a program called 40 Days of Baby Steps. I had a bunch of people all working on their 40-day project while I did my 40-day project of writing my book. That gave me accountability. It gave me company, which for me works really well because I’m an extrovert. I work well bouncing ideas around from other people, but also put me in that role of being the coach, so if I come up with… actually, I’m having a really bad day; I can’t write anything, I’ve got to come up with a solution to that rather than just the problem.

Because I’m the coach in that group. That kind of put me in a role where I’ve got to come up with a solution, which was really helpful. Also, anything that came up in terms of problems just became material for my book, so that was also really helpful. I think that whole breaking it down into baby steps, so yeah. I’m not going to write … If I have “write book” on my to-do list, I’m just going to do everything else but, but if I have “write five ways of saying no” or “three ways of celebrating success”, that’s a much more tangible thing.

That can often help me to just get started and then the rest of it comes, flows after that.

Alison Jones:  I am nodding so energetically here I can’t tell you. I endorse all of that. So, so brilliant. Such great practical tips there, and I love that point about coming up with the solution as well as the problem because you put yourself in the position of coaching other people. It reminds me when I was learning to run. I was leading a village running group, and you had to show up every week and you had to be there. You had to be seen to be enjoying it. Of course, you did that, and you do. I got incredibly fit and I now run as part of my life, but it’s amazing; just stepping into that before you feel you’re ready almost is so powerful. It’s so helpful.

Grace Marshall:         I think the other thing with writing as well is it’s a very deep dive activity. To focus to a little while ago around deep diving versus scanning because I think a lot of what we do in today’s life and today’s world of work is scanning, so checking emails, running from one meeting to another. Facebook, Twitter, all of that stuff is really quick hits, and from a productivity point of view, when you’re so used to getting quick hits, writing a book is completely different.

Alison Jones:  A different schedule of rewards, isn’t it?

Grace Marshall:         Exactly. Yeah, you don’t get that quick hit of like “tick, I’ve answered an email” or “tick I’ve clicked on a button on Facebook” or whatever. There is a psychological battle there where your mind monkey basically will just go, “This is too hard. I want to go do something that I can get a quick hit from.” Yeah, that baby steps helps to get a quicker hit. I think also just giving yourself the option to go into deep dive mode. I remember when I was writing the second book I did a lot of it in a café in Stafford where, I would just go… “I’ve blocked out the day. I’m going to go sit in this café and write. Today’s my writing day.”

I noticed that when I first get settled in I start writing, the temptation to go and check is really high. Then I remember one time I put a timer and said, “All right, I’m going to write 25 minutes before I go check anything else.” Every time I was tempted to check, I would look and I’d go… The first few times it’s “Oh my God. It’s only been four minutes.” Then another one, “Oh, it’s only been another six minutes.” Initially, it was like every couple of minutes I wanted to check. Then gradually, I just fell into that flow and started deep diving. Then next thing I knew I looked up and went, “Oh, wow. It’s been 20 minutes.”

Yeah, so I think recognizing that maybe sometimes we’re just used to being in scanning mode and we need to almost resist that urge to get that quick hit and allow ourselves to go into that deep dive. Because once we get there, we’ll realize, “Okay, this feels natural. I know how to do this,” and the words will flow. But if we don’t allow ourselves to get there, if we’re constantly distracting ourselves by going back into that scanning mode, then it becomes really hard.

Alison Jones:  That’s awesome advice, and I use the Pomodoro timer quite a bit as well. I absolutely get that. There are times when you get into flow and then the timer goes off and you’re shocked because it seems like only five minutes. At the beginning, oh, man. It’s like, “Really? Has it only been four minutes? You’re kidding me.”

Grace Marshall:         Exactly.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, I totally get that. I was going to ask you if you have one best piece of advice, but I feel like you’ve got about 15 here. If I held a gun to your head and said, “What’s your one best piece of advice, what would you say?”

Grace Marshall:         I think it would be, especially for first-time authors, I would say: see this as the first book you’re going to write, not the last book you’re ever going to write. See it as your first thing. Rather than, “I’ve got to write everything” or “I’ve got to write the best thing ever,” see it as the first book, as a starting point. Yeah, I think that that would be my advice.

Alison Jones:  I think that’s brilliant advice because it at a stroke almost takes the pressure off, doesn’t it …

Grace Marshall:         Yeah.

Alison Jones:  … because you can write more, but let’s focus on this one and then you can think about the next one. Yeah, I love that. Now, you know about the show. I know you’ve seen who’s been on in the past and so on. I always ask my guests to recommend someone that they think that my listeners would really enjoy hearing as well. Who do you think I should invite as a guest onto the show and why?

Grace Marshall:         Selfishly, I would love you to invite Brené Brown because she’s one of my favourite authors.

Alison Jones:  I would love to have Brené Brown on here. I’ll give it a go.

Grace Marshall:         Yeah. A couple of other people come to mind as well. Caroline Webb. She wrote the book “How to Have a Good Day,” which I thoroughly enjoyed. There’s some really good stuff there that resonates really well with the work that I do on productivity, but there’s also some wider stuff there around some of that kind of impostor syndrome stuff that she covers, things from negotiation to working with other people, working with teams, all that kind of stuff. It’s all about understanding … without giving any spoilers away … I love the take that she has. She has a great way of mixing scientific research and studies with very easy to relate to examples in everyday life.

Alison Jones:  I don’t know her, but I love the title. I love “ How to have a Good Day”. What a great title.

Grace Marshall:         Also, Melissa Romo. She’s actually a fiction author, so she’s written a novel, but she’s also the … now I might get her job title wrong, but I think she’s the global director of content at Sage, so her work, her job is all about business content and business writing. I think she’d have some really interesting insights from her experience as a fiction writer but also from that business writing point of view.

Alison Jones:  What fascinating recommendations. Thank you. I will follow all of those up and hopefully we’ll get all three. That’d be fantastic. Thank you so much, Grace. That was absolutely brilliant. Now if people want to find out more about you, more about your productivity stuff, where do they go?

Grace Marshall:         So Grace-Marshall.com is my website. If you go to the books part of it, then you can download the first chapter of my book if you want to have a read of that, but you can also grab a whole lot of resources from the blog and my … what’s it called? A Really Productive Playlist. That’s what it’s called. It’s kind of… quick, short, sharp tips and ideas that you can pick up and go, “Oh, okay let’s give that one a try.” Also, I’m on Twitter a lot, @Gracemarshall on Twitter, so feel free to say hello. One of the things I find is that productity is very much conversation it’s that kind of understanding, where are you starting from, where do you want to get to. Let’s have a conversation around that. It’s a conversation a work in progress. I’d love to continue the conversation with you, so feel free to get in touch.

Alison Jones:  Awesome. I’ll put all those links up on the show notes, so if you want to go to ExtraordinaryBusinessBooks.com you will find all those links there. Thank you so much, Grace. What a lot of advice, information, inspiration in a very short period of time. Thank you so much.

Grace Marshall:         Oh, it’s an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having, me Alison.

Alison Jones:  Goodbye.

Grace Marshall:         Bye.

 

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