‘Anyone can read those things, whether they’ve met me or whether they haven’t and go, “Yeah, that’s about me,” because the stories are relevant to so many people.’
Coaching psychologist Martin Goodyer has a very simple idea he wants to get across to as many people as possible: we can all do better if we ask ourselves better questions. To get that idea through to the reader, he uses stories. WTF Just Happened? is a collection of stories about individuals in all sorts of situations, from losing weight (or rather, failing to lose weight) to making disastrous relationship choices to bombing in business. I guarantee you’ll read at least one of them and say: ‘Oh my goodness, that’s me.”
In this interview we discuss the art and science of telling stories, particularly the tricky issues of truth and confidentiality, and explore why they work so well in engaging our attention and changing our behaviour.
Martin believes most ‘self-help’ books don’t work, no matter how good the advice, because fundamentally we don’t like being told what to do. Stories, on the other hand, engage our emotions, they smuggle big ideas into our brain because we let our guard down – the book is ‘a form of open-eye hypnosis’.
There’s also a brilliant idea for an attention-grabbing book launch and an incredibly powerful question for you to ask yourself as a business-book author.
Martin’s website: http://www.martingoodyer.com/
Alison Jones: Hello! Welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club. Today, I’m in with Martin Goodyer, who is a coaching psychologist and author of a couple of books, How to Be a Great Coach, and most recently, just published in fact, WTF Just Happened?, which apparently stands for, what the flipping heck just happened, which is nice. He’s worked with Jack Osbourne on Adrenalin Junkie. He’s worked on Channel 4’s Fit Farm and perhaps most excitingly, he’s also author of a series of children’s books about Marmite, The Very Clever Cat. Welcome to the Club, Martin.
Martin Goodyer: I’m glad you found that one the most exciting.
Alison Jones: Partly because I love Marmite, partly because I love cats, and partly because I have children so ,what’s not to like? Yeah, no, I’d love to talk to you about Marmite. Maybe we’ll do that when we finish recording.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: Yeah, we should probably tell the people all about WTF Just Happened?
Martin Goodyer: Probably.
Alison Jones: What do you do for the title?
Martin Goodyer: What did I- Sorry, I missed that.
Alison Jones: How do you say the title out loud?
Martin Goodyer: WTF Just Happened.
Alison Jones: Okay.
Martin Goodyer: When I’m asked about it, it’s, what the fudge, or what the flipping, or whatever else you want to fill in.
Alison Jones: Insert your own F here?
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, insert your own. Obviously it represents a little bit of text speak, I suppose.
Alison Jones: Down with the kids.
Martin Goodyer: Social media is such a big aspect. We’re down with the kids, most definitely, yeah.
Alison Jones: How did it come about?
Martin Goodyer: Well, for years I’ve been pressed by friends, who have written books and been out there in the media, to write something that was more than just focused on the niche of coaching or on changing behaviour. Probably the driving force for this was the fact that years ago, about 20 odd years ago, I came across a book that I’m sure everybody else has read or at least knows the title of by Richard Carlson, Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff.
Alison Jones: Oh, yes.
Martin Goodyer: Which the success of that book, and I believe there are about 25 million of those books in print now, the success of that is that it was a very simple, singular idea expressed in a variety of contexts so that it resonated with the people that read it. The more they read about it the more they were able to incorporate it in their own lives. It made a difference to me and I know it made a difference to millions of other people too. My very simple and straightforward idea was that we simply need to be asking ourselves better questions. If we ask a better question, we end up getting a better result.
About 15, 16 years ago I had put on the back of my business cards, “Is what you’re doing now taking you further or closer to your ultimate goal?” It was the one question I’d constantly be asking people. The idea of simply saying, well, if we replace lots of the chatter that was going on inside our heads by a simplified question of saying, “Are we on track or are we off track,” then that would make a difference too. This book is my version, if you like, of that same kind of approach of taking a singular, simple idea and expressing it in a way that resonates with the people that read it. The methodology that I chose was to express it in stories, stories that I hope reflect the real life of lots of people.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. I want to talk about the stories actually.
Martin Goodyer: Sure.
Alison Jones: Hold that thought for a second. What I love is-
Martin Goodyer: I will.
Alison Jones: I love that you’ve actually just demystified coaching. All coaching is, is asking really good questions and giving people space to answer them isn’t it?
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: People who would balk at the idea of coaching or wouldn’t feel that coaching was for them, asking yourself better questions, that’s a really easy, accessible way of doing it, isn’t it? You don’t realize that’s coaching.
Martin Goodyer: No and the beauty of it, Alison, is that it’s scientifically based. It’s not just anecdotal or some kind of good idea that someone’s had but it actually changes our brain chemistry. When we’re faced with a statement, whatever that statement is, unconsciously we’re forced to protect ourselves. The minute someone makes a statement to us, we have to weigh up whether this is a threat and it’s the beginnings of the flight or fight response. Your epinephrine is produced in the brain, a precursor to adrenaline. The more threat we feel about a particular statement, the more that, that process continues and repeats. Our breathing starts to get shallower. Our focus starts to narrow. We end up making decisions or acting in a way that is less than helpful.
However, when we hear a question, the question puts us in control. If that question is put in a way that, not only puts us in control but puts us in positive control, then it starts to stimulate chemicals like serotonin, precursors to the stimulation of our dopamine centres so that nature’s happy drugs can kick in. We unconsciously begin to feel better about whatever the situation is and therefore make better decisions. Now, of course, statements and questions aren’t just expressed externally. They’re expressed internally too. That’s what this is all about is that if we make a statement to our self like, “Oh no, not again,” or, “Here’s a situation that I can’t handle,” or some kind of statement like that, we will trigger that same kind of threat response.
Whereas if we ask ourselves a better question – “If there was something good out of this, what would it be?” “If I was able to do something, what might that be?” – any of those type of questions, then we put ourselves in control. We automatically feel better about it and we make a better decision. Yes, you’re absolutely right. Coaching is the external articulation of that between one person and another and WTF Just Happened is about stimulating the internal sort of self coaching approach, if you like.
Alison Jones: You’re right that it has to be better questions. “Why am I such an idiot,” for example, wouldn’t quite have the same effect would it, no?
Martin Goodyer: Not so good, no.
Alison Jones: Let’s come back to the idea of the stories because as you said, it’s the core of the book.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, it is.
Alison Jones: Everything is expressed and communicated through the stories and some of them are actually quite shocking.
Martin Goodyer: Yep.
Alison Jones: I’m really interested in this. This is a question that I’m often asked-
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: Every time we sort of work through what it means for that person but you describe those stories as ‘true in essence’ but you say you’ve anonymized them, you’ve changed them to protect the innocent and the guilty in some cases.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, in most cases, I think that is.
Alison Jones: Just tell me a little bit more. Did you struggle with that balance between-
Martin Goodyer: Well, no…
Alison Jones: That tension between truth, confidentiality but also impact there…
Martin Goodyer: Not really. Here’s the reason why. It’s simply because I’m old, I think, and I I’ve been doing this for such a long time. What happens with this is that when you’ve done thousands and thousands of hours of one-to-one meetings with people, and I have, I mean this is 20 year’s worth of interventions now, close to 20,000 hours I think, was the last thing that was added up in terms of individual and group consultations over that period of time, you hear the same stories articulated over and over. Now, the contexts change slightly but basically they have the essence with them. It is drawing from those stories and those repetitions over and over that’s enabled me to do that.
You know, one of the things that happened to me, Alison, was that my first degree, my first qualification wasn’t actually in psychology and coaching. I began in business. I was working for an international hotel companies and I did that for 18 years. I got heavily involved in people development during that and so when the opportunity came up, I switched horses midstream and went to learn about psychology, went back to school. As part of that, I wanted to learn more about that NLP that we’re all familiar with I’m sure, Neuro-Linguistic Programming. I’d come across it originally in, I guess it went way back. My first practitioner program was in 1987, believe it or not, all wearing shoulder pads and…
Alison Jones: I didn’t know NLP was a thing then.
Martin Goodyer: …shirt sleeves rolled up. Yeah, it was. It was. It began in the mid 70s up in the West Coast of the US. That was when I was running a hotel and it was about trying to deal with the press, if you’ve got a major issue going on, and using the right kind of language. Anyway, when I started doing this professionally, coaching professionally, I wanted to learn more about it so I went on one of the Richard Bandler courses, Bandler being the guy that co-created it. It was one of these 10-day programmes. It was quite intense and it was brilliant.
At the end of it, I went to Dr. Bandler and I asked him, “What do I have to do to be really good at this?” Now, I won’t repeat exactly what he said because just like my WTF has got an F in it, there was one of them. He’s quite interesting in the way that he expresses himself. At the time I think he’d got black nail varnish on one hand and a ponytail but there you go. He’s toned down a bit, I think, since then. But essentially he said: you’ve got to practise.
I went away and having lots of contacts in the hotel industry, I went to one of the hotels that I knew very well and I knew that they had a big leisure club, and golf membership. I also knew that on a Sunday, Sunday was their quietest day, most of the rooms they had for where people did their massages and nails weren’t really being used.
I went to them. I said, “Look, I’ve got a deal for you. I’ve done this stuff that helps me help people change their behaviour and I want to get even better at it. My chap that’s taught me has told me I need to do lots of practice so here’s the deal. I will do 45-minute sessions with people, and I’ll use one of your rooms, and you can decide exactly how much you’re going to charge, and as long as you advertise it to one of your memberships, you can keep all the money.” They went, “Well, what do you mean? You’ll just come in and do it for nothing?” I went, “Yeah, absolutely.”
They bought that idea and for two years, with the exception of when I was on holiday, every Sunday I had a full schedule of 45-minute sessions. Word spread quite quickly and I was getting people from all over the place that worked, that were coming in and doing these confidential sessions. I had everything from people that were scared of heights, or snakes, or were having habits they wanted to break like gambling and even liked drugs, if there is such a thing. But the reason I’m telling you this story is that I did this two years of stuff to practise. You can imagine the number of stories that I heard during that, never mind with the coaching consultations.
Then I went back and I did the same program with Dr. Bandler again, the same full 10 days. You can imagine when I said, when I went back on, I looked him in the eyes and I just said, “Dr. Bandler, I’ve…” (and I used the same terminology) “…practised,” which was great fun. Now, I have to say I got as much from doing it the second time as I did the first. It wasn’t a challenge to pick key stories that I’d heard lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of times and then pick from those a construct that was reasonable and yet was not breaking any confidences. I think I say at the beginning of it that there are people that will read it and will go, “He’s talking about me.”
It’s very interesting that one of the first bits of feedback I had was from a current client who I hadn’t started working with until after the book was being published. He rang me and he said, “I’ve read one of the chapters and it’s me.” I went, “Well, that’s really cool, isn’t it? There must have been something going on there psychically that…”, and he was just laughing and actually it was a chapter about taking control of yourself in the work environment. He’d recognized that he’d made himself a victim and as a result of that, asked himself a better question, went into his company, ended up doing a deal with them that suited them and suited him. He’s moved on with his life in a way that’s incredibly positive. That would have been a potential disaster if he hadn’t.
Do you know what? If I don’t get any more calls like that, that one has made writing the book absolutely worth it. But the point is, yeah, anyone can read those things, whether they’ve met me or whether they haven’t and actually go, “Yeah, that’s about me,” because the stories are relevant to so many people.
Alison Jones: You’ve abstracted things from them, haven’t you?
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: Really specifics ones, how to avoid getting fat, how to avoid children turning into monsters…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: Then broader things like, how to avoid missing out at work…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: That’s interesting because I know a lot of people grapple with that idea of truth. When they tell a story, they think it needs to be correct in all particulars.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: I very often battle with them, you know, this is irrelevant. It may have happened…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: …but it’s irrelevant. Actually, the truth has to serve the reader, doesn’t it?
Martin Goodyer: It does. Even when people tell stories about them, which they believe are in essence truthful, they’re actually not. I mean, again, technically every time we recall something, some of those details of those things that we’re recalling change. The more that we recall the story, the likelihood is that the more of it will change. I’ve just told you that story of long time ago when I met Dr. Bandler and when I did the, you know, when all of those things happened. As I’m saying them to you now, I’m thinking yeah, that’s absolutely how it happened but you know, I can’t guarantee that. I can’t guarantee that those were exactly the words that were said because that’s not the way the human brain works. We’re constantly adapting and changing our own stories anyway. That really doesn’t make any difference. The fact is that they’re put together in a way that, as you say, they’re intended to serve the reader and not to serve me.
Alison Jones: That’s really interesting. There’s so much that we could put- There’s a whole philosophical treatise of truth here. “What is truth,” said Pilate…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, yeah.
Alison Jones: But I think that’s really useful for people because I think this is something people struggle with and the idea that actually there is no such thing as a complete, you know, the basic record unless you have somebody transcribe the meetings that happened.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: It is about what you select, how you present, and as long as it’s founded in truth and it’s serving the reader maybe you shouldn’t get too hung up about it.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, and as long as you’re honest about it too.
Alison Jones: Yes. That’s important isn’t it, that disclaimer at the front.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’ve got to say what’s really going on. I think once you’ve done that, it makes it much easier for everybody to go, “Okay, I understand what this is all about,” and then that’s fine. I take from it what I want to take from it.
Alison Jones: Perfect. I want to talk about the design of the book before we finish as well because it’s-
Martin Goodyer: Isn’t it cool?
Alison Jones: It’s so cool! It’s very pop art. I’ll put a picture on the show notes so people can see the cover as well. Inside as well, you know, you’ve got the little running heads are in a pop art kind of call out.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: That’s very, very cool, lots of tint work. It’s only black and white but it’s very, very well done in terms of tint and styling. Did you have a very clear sense of how you wanted it to be or did that come from the publisher?
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. Well, we discussed it quite a lot but the design was down to Crown House. They did a fantastic job with it. The way that it came about was that we had lots and lots of options at the beginning when we were putting it together. But essentially, again, we tried to keep a core idea in mind and that core idea is that this book is different. It is not a self help book and I stress that over and over in every interview that I’ve ever done about this since it’s been published. Now, I’ve said that self help books do not work. We know that; self evident. If they worked then there wouldn’t be so many of them about, would there? It’s just there.
Alison Jones: It’s an industry.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. The reason that they don’t work is for precisely the reason that asking a better question is such a good idea, is that they preach and they say, “This is what you should do. This is how to do it. This is the way you make a difference.” By preaching, they put people in that state of threat and want to push back against it. On the surface, intellectually someone can read a great self help book and go, “That’s brilliant. That’s really helped me. That’s going to change my life.” Then guess what? They go ahead and they do something completely different. Then afterward they’ll go, “I knew better than that. Well, why didn’t I change my behaviour? I loved that book and yet I still didn’t act in the way that it suggested.”
Well, because the reason is that we don’t behave based on our intellect. We behave based on the way our emotions are stimulated at the time. If our emotions are being stimulated unconsciously, then by the time we realize what we’ve done, it’s too late. The whole design of this book was to say, it is different. The shape of it is different, being square as opposed to the normal shape. It was all about saying, “Well, if we want this to stand out, if we want to make a splash with it, and want to genuinely say, this isn’t a self help book. The self help is down to you. If it resonates, if some of the stories resonate, if the little insights into psychology make sense to you, then you’ll do something with it.” The book is a form of open-eye hypnosis and because the same singular idea is repeated over, and over, and over again, you can’t help but have it sink in.
You were talking about the philosophical bit about truth and the difficulties with truth. I had another bit of feedback only yesterday actually. It was a text as I was getting off the airplane. It was from someone that I know had bought a copy who is involved in the healthcare industry and particularly the chapter on the weight loss chapter or lack of weight loss chapter. This particular person has an issue with their own weight and yet has been a proponent of weight loss for some time. I must admit that I thought actually there might be a little bit of kick back from this one because it’s quite harsh but it was totally the opposite. It was a text to say, “Look, I just want you to know that when I read this, it really hurt and it hurt in a good way because it’s true, and it’s made me focus, and it’s made me say, look, do you know what, I need to do something about me before I can do something about someone else.” You know what? Again, that made my heart lift
Martin Goodyer: It just shows that, that design of the cover, the shape, everything is about: this is different.
Alison Jones: It’s different and another thing that it does, and I’m sure this was partly your thinking as well, is it kind of smuggles it in. It doesn’t feel threatening. It looks like a cartoon, like a comic, and these are stories about other people. “We’re not pointing the finger at you…” because most self help books are written for ‘you’, aren’t they? “You do this…”
Martin Goodyer: They are.
Alison Jones: This is about other people, and you can smuggle in so much under that unthreatening cover.
Martin Goodyer: It’s sneaky, isn’t it?
Alison Jones: It’s clever. It’s darned clever. It’s great. Tell me as well, how you went about, because I know you did something really cool here, how did you go about promoting this book?
Martin Goodyer: Well, I think every book that you really want to get out there it’s… People would have said to me before that it’s like giving birth when you’re sending out a book like this. I have no idea whether that’s true or not because I’m never going to be able to give birth but I get the idea that you put in an awful lot beforehand and then suddenly there is something that takes on a life of its own and goes out there. Just like you might christen a baby or whatever, or celebrate the birth of a baby, I wanted to celebrate the birth of this book.
On the launch day, when I knew it was going onto the websites of all the big book stores and it was going out there, I wanted to kind of give it a send off. I did the opposite of some launches that I’ve been to where you hire a rent-a-crowd in a London bar, try and get as many celebrities in there as you can, and take lots of photographs, which really isn’t authentic for me. Instead, what I did was I did a launch actually at home and I had people coming. I had an open house throughout the day and I had people coming from all over the place all day to join with a glass of champagne.
Then in the middle of the day I hired an airplane with a big banner that said, “#WTFJustHappened – tweet to win” and we had a competition going on that I’m pleased to say, somebody won, which was great, for a book. We had this plane flying over the Midlands during the middle of the day with this banner. Honestly, Tweets were coming from everywhere, like, “What does this mean? I’m Tweeting it but I don’t know what it’s about.” It was good fun.
Alison Jones: That’s so cool.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. Well, again, it was just trying to be a bit different, you know, give it a launch out there. Is there a direct link between book sales and doing something like that? I don’t think so.
Alison Jones: But a lot of fun.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, a lot of fun and just to give it a shove in the right direction. I believe it did.
Alison Jones: Yeah, and it’s about signalling it, isn’t, as you say?
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: This is something a bit different, something a bit extraordinary. I also love the idea of an open house launch, by the way. That’s really nice.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, it was great.
Alison Jones: I love that, yeah. I love that mix as well, the kind of keeping it real but also with the plane with the banner.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. It was good because, I mean, I’ve been around, as I said, I’ve been around for quite a long time so I know lots of people. There were folks dropping in that were ex-business people so they’re quite senior in their own right. We had an Olympian arrive, and a posh speaker, and all sorts of weird and wonderful people. They’re not weird necessarily, although some may be. Anyway, but it was… That’s just family I’m referring to, I think.
Alison Jones: He said hastily.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, yeah. But it was a great day and the plane was just really good fun. Now, of course it did help with, if anyone else is thinking about doing it when they’re launching their book, it did help with things like radio stations.
Alison Jones: Yeah.
Martin Goodyer: I was really busy from first thing in the morning. I drove out to a radio station to do an early morning interview. Then I went along to the airfield and did a photo shoot with the plane before it went up and getting all ready. Then as the plane actually was taking off, I was legging it to the next interview and literally going round the radio stations as the plane was flying in the air, and before going to the launch itself.
Alison Jones: That’s actually a really important tip in there, isn’t it, because the launch of your book, massive though it is for you, it’s not really a story for local papers but a plane-
Martin Goodyer: No.
Alison Jones: Yeah, that’s a story.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, it does.
Alison Jones: It gives them something to talk about, give them a hook. That’s brilliant.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah, and it really worked, you know? It was lots and lots of coverage, in fact, with the local paper as well. They did it as part of their online coverage in the moment and that’s good. I think more people read newspapers online these days than they do in the print.
Alison Jones: Yes, I’m sure that’s-
Martin Goodyer: That was good.
Alison Jones: It’s good that you thought about getting the content that you could use, so actually being there with the plane beforehand. I always think if you’re going to do anything, or if you’re going to spend big on something like this, you’ve really got to think about how you can get the most out of it, haven’t you? It’s not just the…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: …while it’s flying. It’s get the video, talking to the pilot beforehand. You can use that forever.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah. Absolutely and that’s exactly what we did. It was all good fun.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. Martin, what’s the best single bit of advice that you would give to somebody who’s listening, who’s in the throes of writing their first business book? What could you tell them that might help?
Martin Goodyer: Okay, well, clearly it’s about having a singular idea. There are so many people that know so many things that are of value that when they try and put them all out there at the same time, it just dilutes it. It’s like having a really good spirit and chucking it into a punch of all sorts of different weird and wonderful bits and pieces. The punch ends up tasting vile. The same thing can happen with great ideas. Choose the one that you’re passionate about.
Choose the, again without sounding too coachy about it, take yourself forward and go, if you’re going to be remembered for one thing, if you’re going to make a difference with one thing, what would that one thing be? If you were having to articulate that to different audiences, in order that they got that idea and they didn’t just get it and went, “Oh, what a clever boy (or clever girl) you are,” but they actually changed their behaviour. They did something with it. Then how would you say that? If you’re able to put that together, if there is content there from asking yourself those kind of questions, then you have the bare bones of your book.
Alison Jones: That’s genius. You put it so well. Thank you. I love that. You know why? It’s so true as well. I honed down and narrowed the focus of my book so much from trying to write everything I knew, which is still, you know, you know how to coach yourself but you still…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: You still sort of do these things and then you catch yourself, “Oh, yeah, I’m not doing that right,” and, “I wouldn’t be doing this with a client.” So interesting, thank you. I always ask people, who would you recommend as a guest for this show, so somebody with something interesting to say? I know. Just only one please.
Martin Goodyer: There’s only one. No, but there is, I mean there’s one that springs to mind. He’s actually the guy that did the foreword for this book. You know I mentioned earlier on that I had people that were nagging at me for years to write it. This chap was at the forefront of them. His name’s Jason Vale. Many of your listeners will know who he is. He’s known as the Juice Master and he’s written, oh, I don’t know, must be more than a dozen books now on juicing. He’s sold books literally in the millions. He now… When I met him, he had this, again, singular idea that was, people do not recognize the power that there is just juicing fruit and vegetables to change their lives and incorporate it in their everyday life.
When I met Jason, he’d had this idea and he’d just penned his first book. He’d typed it all out himself, and there were bits of scribbles on it, and all sorts of things. He didn’t know anything about how difficult it was to get published. He just stuffed it into a post box and sent it to who he thought was going to be a reasonable publisher. It was so authentic. It was so good and so refreshing that they literally ate it up. Jason went from being a great idea and a passion to… now he owns juice retreats around the world. His face is featured on juicing machines with the likes of Phillips, and Lord knows who else. He’s a big name in this stuff.
Yeah, I even see him now, his latest blogs and things, or not blogs but tweets and stuff, you see him with all sorts of big stars in the music business and what have you. But here’s the thing: if you wanted to hear from someone that has written books and written books that are about people changing what they do, it’s still a business. I mean, it’s juicing, all right, but it’s a big business. The reason why I say he’s done so well operating with juice machines and what have you is that it’s not just some fanciful idea. He’s a guy that really knows what he’s talking about and throughout all his success he still remained incredibly authentic as well. He’s a great guy.
Alison Jones: Awesome. Right. I don’t know him. I shall get in touch with him. It sounds really, really interesting. No, I love… you sound almost defensive about the juicing thing. I think it’s brilliant and that’s kind of one of…
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: …my big theses as well: it doesn’t matter what business you’re in. Content matters for absolutely everybody. If you’re passionate about something, then, a book is kind of the ultimate expression of that as well, so that’s great.
Martin Goodyer: Yeah.
Alison Jones: If people want to find out more about you, Martin, and more about WTF Just Happened, where do they go?
Martin Goodyer: All they need to do is just go to my website, which is www.martingoodyer.com. Goodyer, by the way, has got no A in it. I’m not like the tyres. It’s…
Alison Jones: Don’t worry. I actually put your link on the show notes.
Martin Goodyer: I used to go, “It’s Good-Yer,” then we had this flipping DJ called Mark Goodier and everyone started spelling it with an “I” instead of a “Y” so, I know, you can’t win can you? But martingoodyer.com, everything I’m doing is in there, links to the book, links to getting hold of me. Obviously I talk a lot, as you can hear. The great thing about this book, is that it also links to business audiences so I’ve been invited to speak at various conferences where people are either launching a product, or creating change, or whatever. They don’t want to have one of those WTF moments where it goes wrong. This is a great way of them being able to future proof themselves from having that by having me speak about some of these kind of stories and how they’re relevant to them.
Alison Jones: Yeah, I imagine it applies across the board.
Martin Goodyer: It does, yeah.
Alison Jones: That was so much fun. Thank you so much, Martin, and-
Martin Goodyer: My pleasure.
Alison Jones: I do recommend the book. It’s very, very readable and very wise so thank you.