Episode 63 – Storytelling & Reader Experience with Bernadette Jiwa

Bernadette Jiwa‘How can I write books that people will read all the way to the end, they can open at any page and find something interesting or useful or inspiring or actionable, and they’ll come back to again?’

And with that question, Bernadette Jiwa – author of Difference: The one-page method for reimagining your business and reinventing your marketing, Marketing: A Love Story and most recently Hunch: Turn Your Everyday Insights Into the Next Big Thing – nails the question for any business book author.

Discover how she goes about answering it, and particularly how she uses the principles of storytelling and the backstory to write such compelling, generous books, in this fascinating interview.



LINKS:

Hunch site: http://hunch.how/

Bernadette’s blog: http://thestoryoftelling.com/

Bernadette on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bernadettejiwa

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge (starts 5 June): https://alisonjones.leadpages.co/proposal-challenge/

Alison Jones:                        Hello and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club, and I am beyond thrilled to be here this morning with Bernadette Jiwa, who is a hero of mine. Now, Bernadette helps companies build story-driven brands; she helps them spend less time trying to make people love the things that they make, and more time making the things that people love. And she’s the author of several books — Difference, Marketing: A Love Story, Meaningful, and several more — and most recently, and the one that we’re going to focus on today, really, is Hunch: Turn Your Everyday Insights Into the Next Big Thing. So, good morning, Bernadette.

Bernadette Jiwa:              How are you, Alison? I’m thrilled to be here. We’ve been planning this for some time.

Alison Jones:                        I don’t think that people need to know that with you being in Australia and me being in the UK, this is 6:00 a.m. for me, it’s late in the evening for you, and I may possibly have slept in for the original scheduled thing. I just don’t think anybody needs to know that, do you?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, it’s all good, it’s all good. It happens all the time.

Alison Jones:                        It’s always fun, though, when you’re speaking to somebody in Australia. It sort of feels like glimpsing the future, you know? What’s the 19th of May shaping up like? That’s the day we’re speaking. Is it worth getting up today?

Bernadette Jiwa:              It’s really weird when it comes to your birthday, or when your kids say, “Was I … You know, I was born at this time,” and I’m thinking, “Yeah in … But you were born in England, so maybe not.” So your birthday might have been another day in another country.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah. Before our heads explode, we should start … We should leave time travel there. And let’s talk about Hunch, which is a beautiful book. I mean, you’d sent me the proof, which is, of course, great, and had the cover on, but when I actually got the proper book, it’s got that beautiful embossing on the cover. It looks gorgeous. So what prompted you to write Hunch, and how does it follow on from Difference, in particular?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, you know, my books have tended to be about helping people to articulate their ideas, and what I was finding was that people’s lack of self-belief in the fact that they were the sort of person who could have great ideas. We have this obsession, we get caught up with thinking about where good ideas come from, and … Even ideas for books, for example, for your listeners. And I think it’s more to do with who good ideas come from and how to be that kind of person, so that’s why I wrote the book, to help people to be the kind of… To believe that they are the kind of person who can trust their gut and go, and to give them the tools to do that.

Alison Jones:                        That’s interesting, so it almost went upstream from your previous books, so you’re looking at what people are doing and go, “Well, actually, the problem is I don’t really trust my ideas in the first place.”

Bernadette Jiwa:              Every time I write a book … I think I might have said this in the introduction to one of my books. Every time I write a book, I realise I needed to write the book that preceded that book.

Alison Jones:                        So interesting.

Bernadette Jiwa:              So I have to keep going backwards.

Alison Jones:                        And actually, that’s a really … I was going to say “common.” That’s … I’m not denigrating it at all, but I see it a lot, in that writers start off with a really specific application, a real kind of “how” thing, and then, as they go on, as they write more books, they do, they become almost deeper and further upstream, and get to the “why” as a sort of natural consequence.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, yeah, I’m definitely finding that. I think I might become a poet at one point, you know? Or a philosopher, one or the other.

Alison Jones:                        Or write an epic cycle or something. One of the things that you mentioned in the book, which is a bit of a throwaway line in the book, really, but it really caught my attention, was that you talked about your brains trust. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that is, who they are, and how it works?

Bernadette Jiwa:              When I was writing this book, I… You know, my readers are incredible, they are… They give me a reason to get up every day. Without them, I don’t have a reason to write, and some of them just want to help, and they wanted to be included in the process and whatnot, so I got them involved in… Not overly involved, but asking them about, you know, what do they think of subtitles. And that was the first time I’d done this, probably because also, I’m working with a publisher this time, and I self-published my other books, so it was almost like I wanted to also show the publisher, demonstrate what the readers felt, and what their sentiment was, just getting them involved in the process. It’s been lovely.

Alison Jones:                        So what kinds of benefits have you realised from that, in terms of the process of writing? I’m assuming that they help in promoting as well.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Well, there are several readers who’ve offered to look at a copy on NetGalley (I don’t know how this will turn out), and to review the book when it goes live, when it’s on pub date. So that’s new; I’ve never done that before. One of the best proofreaders I’ve ever come across is one of my readers. He catches several mistakes in every one of my books, and he’s always … And even in this, professionally edited to within an inch of its life … All my books are professionally edited, and to a really high standard, but this one to an inch of its life by five people, and he still caught something, so yeah.

Alison Jones:                        That’s a pretty good person to have on your side, isn’t it?

Bernadette Jiwa:              I think next time I should just employ him. We only need him; we don’t need five people to do edits.

Alison Jones:                        Tell me about that journey from self-publishing to traditional publishing.

Bernadette Jiwa:              You know, that’s been interesting. It’s different, because you have so much more control when you self-publish, and I like that, so it’s been interesting to work with a publisher, and obviously an amazing opportunity to work with one of the best publishers of business books in the world, Portfolio, who I’m … Penguin Portfolio, who I’m publishing with, they publish Seth Godin and Simon Sinek, and …

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, we’ve chatted to Adrian Zackheim, actually, the founder of Portfolio. Yeah, he’s terrific.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, Adrian. I listened to that one. So what an opportunity to learn from them.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, absolutely, but an interesting exercise in handing over a bit of control as well?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Exactly, and I guess it’s the difference between being self-employed and then working in a team. There are things you… And probably, in some ways, they come up with ideas that make the book better that I probably wouldn’t have had. Who knows?

Alison Jones:                        And I think when you come to an established publisher with an established backlist, and a tribe, and a following, and traction, yes, you still have to sacrifice some control, because that is the way publishing works, but you probably have more of a… I think publishing’s always a kind of negotiation, isn’t it, between the author and the publisher, and where the power balance lies very much depends on how well you’ve established yourself before you come to the publisher.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, definitely, and I’m sure with giants, somebody like Brené Brown or Simon, they obviously have a lot more say in what’s going on, because I would be, I think, a first-time author to the house, so that’s a different… There’s a different level of trust when you’ve published five books with them and you’ve got a track record. And they obviously have KPIs, and they’ve got things that they need to do to fulfil their obligations to the business.

Alison Jones:                        Absolutely, but you still… You don’t come unproven, you know? I think this is one of the things about self-publishing, is that it allows people to demonstrate, “Yeah, look, I can build a following.” You know, “Do you want to work with me on this or not?” It’s just a different way of coming at it, not going, “I need you to help me get my idea out.” You don’t need them in that way anymore, so they can obviously benefit you. It’s a different, slightly different conversation.

Bernadette Jiwa:              And that’s… Adrian touched on that, didn’t he, in his interview with you?

Alison Jones:                        He did.

Bernadette Jiwa:              He said, you know, “If I am speaking to somebody, and they have… If an author comes to us and said, ‘I haven’t managed to get a single person interested in my idea,’ then we kind of question that.” And equally, you see, we’re seeing it more and more frequently now, publishing houses picking up on authors who’ve self-published, and finding that their book was really resonating, and then acquiring the book afterwards.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, absolutely, and it’s really important about your rights as well, so if anybody is thinking about signing up with a publisher and you’re paying to get it published, just make sure you have your rights, because you want that option open to you.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah.

Alison Jones:                        And what also I noticed about… particularly Difference, which I often use as an example, actually, Hunch less so, but, it’s still quite a small book, isn’t it? I mean, small as in small format, and also quite short, which, by the way, I love. But just tell me about the thinking behind that.

Bernadette Jiwa:              They are all short. All of my books are like that, and it’s really intentional. You know, what I noticed, I go into bookshops all of the time, and I watch people buying books, or actually more browsing books and putting them back, and I would encourage you, if you’re a writer, to go and do this. You can see people weighing a book in their hands nowadays.

Alison Jones:                        “Okay, I haven’t got time for this.”

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, they look at it, and they think, “Oh.” They flick through the first few pages, they look at the cover, and then they think, exactly, “I haven’t got time for this.” Also, if you look at some of the Amazon reviews on even acclaimed books, people will say, you know, “too much,” “too many examples about Apple,” “too repetitive,” so I stripped all that out, and I said, “Okay, how can I write books that people will read all the way to the end, they can open at any page and find something interesting or useful or inspiring or actionable, and they’ll come back to it again?” That’s my intention for the books, because you know, the people I write for are busy people, so I’m definitely thinking about reader experience when I write, too.

Alison Jones:                        Yes, I love that. Do you have a sense of how many words are in one of your books, usually?

Bernadette Jiwa:              About 35,000 words.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, brilliant. I’m just nodding sagely because I was saying to my boot camp people the other day, “You know, it doesn’t have to be much more than 30,000 words, and it shouldn’t be more than 50,000.” I think that is the sweet spot for… It’s funny, in the old days, the thinking was that you wanted heft in your hand for your money, but I think people value their attention and their time so much more these days, and they don’t want the flannel and the fluff, they just want what it is you’re saying, in a way that they can easily absorb on a train journey, as you say.

Bernadette Jiwa:              And who was it, I don’t know who, but somebody … I wish I had said it, but it wasn’t me, “Editing is an act of love.”

Alison Jones:                        Yes. Do you know, that comes up so frequently in this podcast, is that the book … You write the book, and then actually, you write it a second time by taking out all the stuff that is hiding the stuff that people need to hear, so being ruthless with what goes so that you only get the essentials left, which is so tough. Murdering your darlings, you know, it’s so hard.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, so I’ve become an expert at that.

Alison Jones:                        “I can do it now.” And it’s interesting, as well, because you don’t have traditional chapters, which makes complete sense from what you’ve just said about giving value on every page. You almost structure it in a kind of episodic way, so it’s … Each thought is kind of captured and held up on a page or a spread. How do you go about planning that structure, and making sure that, although you can capture value at any point, you have got a sort of sequence of ideas and a narrative that builds up?

Bernadette Jiwa:              I think of it as a story, a three-part journey, and it’s about helping people to see “this is where we are, and this is what we could be,” and then how to get there. So literally, it’s got beginning, middle, and end. It’s that simple, it’s a three-act structure, starting with the status quo, the problem, the solution, examples, then giving people the how-to, the tools to do it, and just then wrapping it up and conclusion.

Alison Jones:                        Which brings us right back to your whole raison d’être, isn’t it? That point about storytelling being the way that we can most effectively communicate what we’re about. Obviously, you’re modelling that in the book. What are the key principles that people need to grab hold of to make that work for them in their books, but also generally in their marketing communications?

Bernadette Jiwa:              You know, increasingly, and what I’m working on for my next book is thinking about your backstory, and how that informs your mission — which people get really confused about, and I’m thinking about some new language there — but your contribution in the world, and how your backstory and your values influence your contribution, and then … What are your aspirations from there, and then what is the thing that you … How are you going to execute on that? So that works for a book too. You know, what’s the purpose of this book? Why does it need to exist? And then, why you? Why were you the person to write this book, when you think about the backstory of the book, and what are your values, and what’s your aspiration for the book and the people that you want to serve, and then how are you going to execute on that?

Alison Jones:                        That’s beautiful, and actually, if you replace the word “book” with “company” in there, it works too, doesn’t it?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yes. It works for anything.

Alison Jones:                        And I think it’s one of the reasons why doing that deep hard work of writing a book is such a great business discipline.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yes. Oh, for sure. It really helps you to understand what value you bring to the world, and there’s nothing more fabulous than being able to articulate that in a word or two words, with your title or your subtitle. That’s some of the most fun you can have in your whole life, trying to do that.

Alison Jones:                        It’s also one of the most frustrating experiences in the world, isn’t it?

Bernadette Jiwa:              You know, I help people a lot with that. Authors come to me all the time, and it’s something I love doing. It’s never frustrating for me. That’s why I think poetry might be a route one time in the future.

Alison Jones:                        I think you might be right. I think you should set up a hotline as well. We have an Extraordinary Business Book Club hotline; people can chuck titles at you, and you can turn them back as beautifully crafted poetic stanzas. That’d be great.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Do you find people really stress about the title and the subtitle?

Alison Jones:                        I do, absolutely, and it’s such a… I feel a bit ambivalent about titles, because on the one hand, when you get your title, it crystallises things, and it’s hugely motivating, and it means that you can confidently go out and talk about your book. So I completely get that, but actually, you still need to hold it lightly, because the book can evolve, and it can take a different shape, and, you discover the metaphor, through the writing, that actually should be the title. So if people get too wedded to their title up front, I think it’s a problem. And also, people can feel inhibited, and they don’t want to start if they haven’t got their title, whereas actually, for so many books, the title comes, you know, almost just before you go to press, doesn’t it?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Well, not for me.

Alison Jones:                        Not for you, okay, right.

Bernadette Jiwa:              I’m contradicting all of your… Well, maybe because I practise a lot, really crystallising what it is before I decide I’m going to write that book. You know, it has to… The book has to find me, because, like probably many of your listeners and you, you’ve got a file in Dropbox that’s got book ideas, and it has to be really compelling for you to want to sit down and put those hours in to get that idea out there. So if it just won’t leave you alone, then that’s when you know you’ve got to do it.

Alison Jones:                        But it comes… You’re right, it comes from the idea, it comes from the message, the story that you want to tell. And an awful lot of people, I think, get an idea for a title, and then kind of cast around for a book that they can write to it.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Ah. No, that’s not what I’m talking about.

Alison Jones:                        No, absolutely.

Bernadette Jiwa:              I’m talking about “What does this book need to be called?” Yeah.

Alison Jones:                        Yes, and I think that’s the balance, and sometimes I think it can be an emerging thing, but … I remember … Who was I talking to? That was it, Alan Weiss, the Million Dollar Consulting, and they were literally about to go to press, and it was called something quite functional, like, you know, Secrets of Consulting in the Management…

Bernadette Jiwa:              I listened to that one too. Great interview, loved it.

Alison Jones:                        It was good, wasn’t it? Yeah, I liked that one. It’s quite fun.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, yeah.

Alison Jones:                        Along with the storytelling, though, you use some really practical tools. I love the way that you put the templates in the book, which feels like a very generous thing. It’s basically “Here’s my intellectual property, go ahead and use it.” Do you do that in every book?

Bernadette Jiwa:              I’ve done that for — let me think — Meaningful, Difference, and this one. And it’s funny you say that, but lots of marketing people, branding people use the templates. They just take them, they’re there for download on the different books’ websites, and they use them, and then entrepreneurs use them in their work too. I feel like … You know, I think writing is a generous act. What a privilege to be able to share your ideas with people. I think about Paul Arden’s book … Which one is it? It’s Not How Good You Are, It’s How Good You Want To Be, and he’s got this image of a little girl with her arm around a copy book, protecting her ideas, and saying how bad this is, because if you put your ideas out there and set them free, you get more of them. I like to think we should be generous, and not be protecting these ideas, because they’re nothing if people don’t adopt them and use them and run with them.

Alison Jones:                        I love that. I love everything about that, and I like also the way that you’re not just giving the ideas in a way that’s kind of interesting but hard to use, to apply. You’re actually doing that work of giving people the template and saying, “Now that you understand the ideas, here’s how you can use them in practise, and you can sit down with whatever situation you have to hand and use this tool.” So you’re providing tools, basically, along with the message, which I don’t think many … Maybe an increasing number, but generally, it’s quite rare, I think, to see people do that.

Bernadette Jiwa:              It’s really intentional, because, you know, I want the books to be useful to people, not just to be white spines on their bookcase. I mean, sometimes white spines on your bookcase, can just be inspiring, you know? If you’ve got Tipping Point, and Outliers, and David and Goliath, and Daring Greatly … I’m reading all the titles on my … Purple Cow. You know, you just have to look at them, and you know what they say to you, and what they’re asking you to go out there and do in your day, and sometimes I think you need something that’s … You know, some practical juice to just get you going.

Alison Jones:                        Where did that idea come from, about actually putting at the back of the book a template? Was that just something that came to you, or did you see it used somewhere else?

Bernadette Jiwa:              I think it just came to me. You know, giving people a totem, almost, what was the totem that I could leave them with, some kind of touchstone that they could have to continue the work once they close the book.

Alison Jones:                        And that’s what it feels like; it feels like almost a handover. It’s like, “Right, here you go, now you understand it, you go do.”

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah, I’m happy you said that. That’s great, I’ve done my job. Thank you.

Alison Jones:                        No, it really struck me as a good way to end a book, if you like, that almost formal kind of handover of “Okay, I’m now finishing this book, away you go and do the work,” and I really like that.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, thanks, Alison.

Alison Jones:                        So I always ask people what their single best tip is. If somebody’s listening to this and going, “Oh, I wish I’d written books like Bernadette Jiwa,” what would you tell them to focus on as they kind of plough through writing their first book?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, just make space for thinking and seeing and questioning. You know, I get really grumpy if I don’t have creative time. I’ve got a consulting business, and I help people with brand naming, and I’m so fortunate to work with all kinds of incredibly smart people and companies all around the world, from my home office here. But if I do not have time in my week to notice things, and to think and create, and to question, I get really grumpy. So you’ve got to make space for that. Give yourself that space, give yourself permission to go and do that.

Alison Jones:                        And when you blog — I know you’ve got your beautiful Story of Telling blog — is that part of that reflective process for you, or is that a separate thing?

Bernadette Jiwa:              That is the biggest part of it, because when you tell people, “I am going to show up here three times a week,” there’s no excuse. You have got to come up with something to say three times a week. And I learned that from Seth Godin, obviously not as prolific as him, every day, genius man that he is. It’s a practise, it’s a discipline, and he talks about commanding inspiration to appear, and somehow it does, and sometimes you feel like you’re saying the same thing in a different way, and somehow it resonates with people. Blogging is a huge part of it, Alison, huge.

Alison Jones:                        That’s so interesting, and I don’t know if you know, when I spoke to Seth Godin, and I was writing a blog afterwards about his everyday discipline and practise, and how inspiring I found that, and by the end of the blog, I’d somehow committed to write every day on my blog, and I’ve been doing that for 250-ish days now, and-

Bernadette Jiwa:              How’s that going?

Alison Jones:                        Well, it’s amazing. I’ve also been running every day. I sort of decided to do the two together, because for me, running is something akin to what you’re saying about the creative space. I have all my best ideas when I’m running, I always feel better when I run, it gives me head space, and just the question of not “Shall I run?” or “Shall I blog?” but “Okay, when today am I going to run or blog?” It’s just a very … A much simpler question. Yes, it changes the dynamic of it. And the number of times I have actually, both of them, started off going, “I really don’t want to do this, I’m so grumpy about this, I have nothing to say, I’m too tired,” and then, of course, the magic happens, and the act of writing becomes that call to your brain, or the space in which your brain can start working.

I’m not saying that all of them … I mean, my blogs are nothing like Seth Godin — I don’t want anybody to go there and start expecting that kind of thing — but in terms of the work they do for me, the interior work that they do for me, both the running and the blogging, it’s been fantastic. I absolutely love it. I’ve no plans to stop either any time soon.

Bernadette Jiwa:              When you get to 10,000 posts, or whatever Seth’s at now, you will be as good as Seth. It’s practise, right?

Alison Jones:                        Yeah. I’ll also be about 120, unfortunately.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Well, you’re doing all this running for a reason, right?

Alison Jones:                        Right. It’s the stamina to keep the blogging, that’s what I’m doing. I also always ask my guests who else I should speak to, recommend somebody to me who’d be a great guest for this show. Who do you think would be good?

Bernadette Jiwa:              Well, before we go there, I want to just have a little conversation with you about the business book industry, and how few women we see publishing. Obviously, that’s changing slightly, but when I first started publishing my books, it was probably one female author in a hundred … In 10, should I say, one in 10 in the top 100 on Amazon, so you would go through the top 100 in business books, and there would be 10 female authors there. And if they were published, they often were published as something that looked like chick lit. I think it’s super important to think about how the industry is structured, because it’s powered by so many smart females who are doing all the work behind the scenes in terms of editorial and PR, and my recommendation for you to speak to … I gave you one on Twitter, which is Sally Haldorson.

Alison Jones:                        Yes, I’m in touch with Sally. I love her site.

Bernadette Jiwa:              She is leading a team at 800-CEO-READ, and she’s a phenomenal author herself, brilliant writer. And the other one is my editor at Portfolio, who is Niki Papadopoulos.

Alison Jones:                        Ooh, I don’t know Niki. Okay, that sounds like a great recommendation.

Bernadette Jiwa:              She is wonderful. She’s worked with Ryan Holiday, she’s worked with some amazing authors. You’ve got to speak to Niki. She is super smart.

Alison Jones:                        Fabulous. And yes, yes, yes to both the points you make there. One of the reasons that I called the Extraordinary Business Book Club “extraordinary,” lots of reasons packaged up in that, but I don’t know if you’ve noticed, I try and have a gender balance, so I alternate.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Mm-hmm (affirmative), I do.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah. It’s really hard, and-

Bernadette Jiwa:              It’s very hard.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, I’ve sort of agonised over this, I’ve talked about it to a lot of publishers. There is a definite discrimination, and that has been proven. There’s a woman who’s … I can’t remember her name now, but she submitted her manuscript under her own name, and then she submitted it to the same publishers under a man’s name-

Bernadette Jiwa:              Oh, wow.

Alison Jones:                        I know. And got more traction, so that there is definitely … And it’s partly, I think, because it’s proven through research that men tend to read books by men, and women tend to read books by women, so there is a kind of commercial justification behind it, but it sucks as a justification.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Well, actually, I can tell you from my blog readership that I have more male readers than female readers, even though I have got a heart as part of my blog brand, and most conversations I have, most emails I get are from men-

Alison Jones:                        That’s fascinating.

Bernadette Jiwa:              … who really want to be in touch with this whole other side of branding and purpose and storytelling, and making emotional connections with the people they serve, and doing meaningful work so …

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, I think history is on our side here… You know what I mean, the tide of … The way that the world is going, the complexity, the fact that it is so about nuance and human relations, the ‘soft’ leadership skills are becoming increasingly important, and there is evidence that… I mean, I don’t want to stereotype. There’s a lot of men doing that very well as well; David Taylor, I think, is a good example. But actually, there is a kind of feminine energy there that people are really tapping into, and really successful CEOs are tapping into.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Exactly, and this is not a, you know, an anti-men rant, because I am the mother of three amazing millennial boys, and … You know, I believe that there are things that they need to know on, as you say, on the energy side, on both sides, and I’m hoping that the industry, the book industry, can follow suit and get away from the stereotypical branding of lipstick and short skirt for a female author, you know?

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And actually, the publishing industry has its own crisis about its leadership, and the lack of diversity at the top. It’s a great … I remember when I worked at Oxford University Press, somebody had pinned up outside their door a little cartoon of a chap looking at a kind of organisational chart and pointing to the circles at the bottom, the thickly populated bottom strata, saying, “A good hierarchy needs a solid foundation of women at the bottom.” Publishing’s been like that forever, so, yeah.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Yeah. Well, all of the people that I’m working with … Well, not … Bar a couple, are amazingly talented, motivated, extraordinary young women.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Amazing, incredible.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, no, that sounds like the publishing I know, and, you know, it’s … In some ways, it’s wonderful, but it’d be great to see that reflected up at the top as well. Yeah, interesting.

Bernadette Jiwa:              And talk to Niki, she’s wonderful.

Alison Jones:                        Great, great recommendation, thank you. And if people want to find out more about you, Bernadette, about what you do and about your books, where should they go?

Bernadette Jiwa:              My website is thestoryoftelling.com, where I blog three times a week, and my … The book, the new book has got a website too. It’s hunch.how.

Alison Jones:                        Oh, I love that suffix.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Good. You’re really good for my ego today, Alison.

Alison Jones:                        I didn’t even know that was a thing. I love that, that’s great. Because, yeah, that’s the problem with “dot com” these days, it’s pretty hard to get a one-word URL, isn’t it? Great. I could literally have stayed on all morning. I don’t think I could have got out of bed for a better reason. Thank you so much, Bernadette, for your time this morning.

Bernadette Jiwa:              Thanks, Alison. It’s great to chat to you.

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