Episode 82 – Book as Toolkit with Dan Underwood

ArtOf EnterprisesDan Underwood is part of the ArtOf team, whose mission is to use diagrams and drawings to help people and organisations see their challenges and opportunities in a fresh and powerful way.

He talked to me about how the ArtOf team have used the process of developing a book to explore and extend their own thinking and to engage with their clients – it’s a great example of how books can be used playfully and dynamically in a business, as a live project rather than a static output.



LINKS:

ArtOf site: http://artofltd.co.uk/

ArtOf Enterprise on Twitter: https://twitter.com/artofenterprise

Dan on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanUnderwoodETP

The Business Book Awards: https://www.businessbookawards.co.uk/

The Flourishing StudentFabienne Vailes – The Flourishing Student: Every tutor’s guide to promoting mental health, well-being and resilience in Higher Educationhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Flourishing-Student-promoting-well-being-resilience/dp/1910056596

10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge wait list: https://alisonjones.leadpages.co/proposal-challenge/

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

Alison Jones:                        Hello and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club. Today I’m here with Dan Underwood, who is one of the ArtOf team. Now, the ArtOf team developed a unique style of visual learning. They use diagrams and drawings to help people and organisations see their challenges and opportunities in a fresh and powerful way. Dan is a coach and a mentor with a background of experiential learning, visual thinking, and applied social science. Welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club, Dan.

Dan Underwood:               Awesome. Thank you for having me. It’s a real pleasure.

Alison Jones:                        I’m really interested in this. This is such a good approach, visual is so hot. So let’s start with the whole ArtOf approach. What is it and why does it work?

Dan Underwood:               Well, the ArtOf approach is quite interesting, it comes from my Dad really, who was an engineer. But he realised he had a unique way of seeing things, which was visual. And he spent time taking complex situations, or complex knowledge and visualising it. And he kind of ended up doing that in the engineering world and ended up going into organisations and visualising knowledge that way, and ended up helping business and using the visuals as the catching of knowledge to communicate to a load of people.

Basically about 15 years ago he decided to go self employed as a consultant as well and start up ArtOf, and started to try and write a book but he’s not very comfortable with words and started off designing stuff and I came along, aged 21, so that was many years ago, about 10 years ago, and we started to work together on putting something together that could take what he knows and the visuals that he can do to put into a product to help people help themselves.

Our philosophy is taking complex knowledge, using our unique visuals in an innovative product design and using the best of what’s currently out there to help people of all generations.

Alison Jones:                        And you say it’s a unique way of seeing things, but actually, we’re all very visual people really. I mean, we’ve been processing information visually way, way longer than we’ve been reading books.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, I very much agree. For me as a person growing up in the Gen Y generation when books were all words, I was visual, there was not much out there really, unless it was Ladybird books or stuff like that, and I realised the way I learnt was to see things and there wasn’t much out there. Now there’s a bit more, and people seem to be more engaging with it, especially with the development of digital stuff and people using YouTube and Instagram etc. So it seems to be a nice popular, universal way of learning.

Alison Jones:                        Well I think it is, yeah, and I think you can also communicate… I remember talking with a few different people in the podcast, Heather McGowan is a really good example, talking about how you can absorb so much more information when it’s presented visually.

And when people are drawing things out, when you’re encouraging people to draw a situation, they’re thinking about it in a different way and it can give them new insights, so I’m a big fan of the whole visual approach, it’s brilliant.

But tell us a little about how you folded that into the book, so obviously your Dad, Phil, wrote the Art of Enterprise Tool Kit, and when I say wrote, that’s entirely the wrong word. He created it.

Dan Underwood:               That was an interesting kind of thing really, he’s a bit like a mad scientist in a way, he likes ideas and he’s a very intense guy. But he’s a visual guy, so he’s almost like a mad scientist but also an artist with an engineering brain so he kind of flips left and right brain a lot.

Alison Jones:                        I think we’ve all got a great visual image now of your Dad, I know I have.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah. He’s a great guy. Working with him is an interesting one, because as a family business and being his son, the standards are never dropped at all. But basically we came up with a simple three step process that we’re going to design everything around the principles, which was, simple, quick and proven.

And basically simple means, grabbing the principles of a subject and visualising it, so everyone can come in on a base knowledge and understand. The quick bit, is have a tool that everyone can have a go at, or capture what they know so everyone can come and have a go. And proven is, this is stuff that’s basically best practised for the last 40, 50 years in business that we’ve taken into the work that Phil’s done over the last 40 years on his career, I’ve done in education with people and see if it’s really usable. And it seems to work very, very well. So everything we designed around those three universal principles: simple, quick and proven

Alison Jones:                        But how did you actually go around translating that into a printed book? Because it is quite a challenge isn’t it?

Dan Underwood:               Very, very difficult. Especially for what pretty much was a two man team for a long time. We went to some of the big publishers, had a go, and we all had the same thing going, this is fantastic, but you’ve pretty much done all the work and this is like… the thing I would like to come on later is about the second bounce, this is knowledge and there’s been developments in technology and different tools but how do you bring that all together? Where’s the market really going to go, what do people need for the future? Not where now, but where’s it going.

So we developed a product where we saw the market going and we actually designed something called the iBook first, which was when the iPad came out. And that was great for us because we can go mad with this kind of technology, we went mad visuals, animations, widgets, we even chucked in tools, we went pretty much overboard. Now turning that into a printed book was really hard for us, because you pretty much have to slow everything down and have to communicate, in what I like to call a bit of a dead language, you can’t really add other stuff on top.

And so that was very, very difficult for both of us as we’re not really word focused. But five years down the line of really getting smashed around a bit and narrowing it down to go what is really usable for the person in that context and that format, we have been able to produce something and we currently do live authoring. So we take the feedback from people and we apply it to new editions, so unofficially we’re on edition 150 and we constantly develop because if you stay still and you think you’ve got the answer you’re going to fail, so we keep on trying, add new things and move with the times and the people, because that’s where the learning is.

Alison Jones:                        And that’s fascinating, presumably that’s because you can do print on demand, so you just resubmit the files and then it generates a different book. So the book I have in my hand could be completely different, or at least slightly different, to the one somebody else has in their hand.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah the print book side, the POD, the print on demand stuff is brilliant because it equips anyone with an idea to have a go. And the entrepreneur now, everyone sees it as a bit of a lifestyle but anyone, give it five years ago, that wasn’t there. And if anyone’s got anything worthwhile to say they’ve got an option outside of the traditional publisher.

And we basically had to become a publisher because there was really no other option for us, which was another responsibility to take on as a business, but it allows us to pretty much create what we want in a pretty unique environment and produce what is quite pure, and develop it in house as well.

Alison Jones:                        And you’ve obviously had a lot of fun developing it. Actually I want to come on to how you use the book in the business but before we do, just tell me a little bit more about the iBooks version, because I know exactly what you mean, Apple launched the iBooks platform and you had to have an Apple and iAuthor to do it and suddenly you could put animations in and you could do all this really, really cool stuff.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah it’s mad, yeah.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah exactly and some people just went completely bonkers with it, which is terrific fun, but what did it… I guess what I’m saying is, where do all the bells and whistles and the gimmicks end and the really, really valuable stuff about freeing up the book in digital form begin? What was the most useful?

Dan Underwood:               It was like anything in life, they kind of get a new innovation and it’s a sexy thing and everyone kind of goes and wants the newness and want to have a go. But they stop chucking a load of stuff in it so it becomes a jack of all trades master of none. It becomes a load of noise, it’s like a movie with loads of explosions, it kind of just numbs you out and it doesn’t really do anything for the actual user or reader.

We came from the way of going it’s an opportunity to add to a knowledge base or a way of working or a visual thing that we’ve got to communicate things in a more engaging way. So for us, we… again, same philosophy of simple, quick, proven, we took the fast knowledge, principles and were able now to more. We did our own 3D animations, using a gaming programme called Unity, we rendered those off using our USP and our IP of our little characters to visualise stuff, so you can play stuff and actually see knowledge alive, coming alive. And the practical tools were brilliant as well because you could show the visual tool and give them a tutorial and a guide, so they can click on it.

Almost like YouTube now a lot of people learn via that, we have that all in one package. And we had real examples of the back end so people could see what that was really like, how other people used them, we call it from boardroom to classroom, it covered all those people and everyone can have a go and use it in the way that they need to. And it worked quite well, problem is, it’s quite a unique platform within another platform.

So before you had to have an iPad to get it, now most people have an iBooks app on their phone, but they don’t know that you can have an iBook that’s not an ebook on the thing, so we’ve got it there and we kind of moved it across to a facilitation tool for people to use the book and air play it or mirror it onto screens so they can empower a team or show tutorials, basically train their team using just one product. And it features quite well.

Alison Jones:                        So it’s a training tool?

Dan Underwood:               Yeah so we’ve moved it across, so instead of a competitive thing with the print book, it’s going, this can be something that you can use with a load of people and the digital technologies around today.

Alison Jones:                        That’s really interesting. I think it underlines, as well, one of the issues about eBooks, the only eBooks we have really are the kind of Kindle type thing, which are just a book except available on your Kindle. And there was so much experimentation in the early days with really whizzy ways of doing it but nobody ever made it stick and it’s partly because it’s expensive to do if you haven’t got the skills yourself. And it’s partly because readers just don’t seem to be ready for it, but when you’re using it in a training environment that’s a very different thing isn’t it?

Dan Underwood:               Yeah it was an interesting one, because anything new, people always grab hold of and go, is it going to stick? And the printing, sorry not printing, the publishing world kind of got threatened by that because it shifted their model and it kind of wobbled a few people.

But in regards to where the change goes, when change happens in an industry there’s opportunity for people to have a go at this new stuff and see what happens and create a niche and a little market for themselves, and we saw that and said, we’ve got something we can contribute to this in our own unique way. We knew eBooks were just officially a digital version of a print book, which is fine and it kind of allows a publisher to use more of the IP they’ve got and maybe mix themselves of the back end without too much overhead.

But for us it’s like, can we move the product solution forward, not just keep around in the same circles? And it kind of worked for us. But again we’re always ahead of the market and the second bounce thing, so we’re currently always risking everything, which is a bit of a weird one, a very strange place to be, because nothing’s for certain. But we like being there, we’ve been there for so long and you learn so much being on the edge, because tomorrow’s always going to be a new challenge and you can always use that and put it into the next product.

Alison Jones:                        And of course you’re walking the talk aren’t you? You’re saying that this book is not a commercially viable product in its own right really, you’re not going to make back the money from the sales of the book that you had to put into the development of it. But that’s okay, because that’s not the point, that’s not why you did it.

So tell us how the book does… what is the ROI that you expect of that book?

Dan Underwood:               Well what’s interesting with this kind of investment is, we looked at the publishing model and authors don’t get much money, percentage wise.

Alison Jones:                        Publishers don’t either, I can tell you that.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, we found that out the hard way, which is interesting. The bubble got burst quite quickly. For us, you have to look at life and go, how do you judge, define success? Is it financial gain? If that’s your return of investment that’s great but there’s more to life than that. Especially now, I call it the moral currency, which is pretty much what you do, what can you contribute to life, what’s the legacy you want to leave behind? Phil and me have a very, very similar philosophy about it, we created this to help people help themselves.

Okay if we get our bit on the end and we break even then great, but we’re going to continue doing our thing. And we get our value, not just from maybe make a little sale of say, we have a £20 book and Amazon’s having fun by lowering that down, so your profit off the end is pretty minuscule for the 15 years’ investment.

But for us we’re learning so much in developing products and I think there’s a growing market, which is you create a product and then there’s like a second bubble. I call it a pebble drop in the ocean, you’re going to have ripples going out and people are going to come back in and maybe contribute to that, so it’s almost like user-generated content.

So we see that as developing a relationship with readers, users and helping us develop a product further into international audiences if we need to because boundaries now are not divvied up by selling it in person. You can sell over borders now, hopefully Brexit doesn’t eliminate that one, but it’s all there, the opportunity to have a go and reach a vast amount of people without being tied to a financial reward that has to be a certain way, it’s different. So, as long as we’re getting on alright then great. But for us our return of investment, our KPIs, are a bit more human than financial.

Alison Jones:                        And do you see the book as primarily, I don’t know, business development, just in terms of getting the word out, getting the name out? Or do you just see it as a tool once you’re working with people, or both?

Dan Underwood:               It’s both really. It’s a bit weird, because Phil works with SMEs and large organisations and people of his generation. And I work with more of the start-up, young entrepreneurs, people in education, stuff like that, I’d like to call it the 35-and-belows of the Gen Y, Millennial generation. And the needs are almost in conflict, they’re different, almost like analogue and digital generations and the multi-generational workplace.

So they come at things in a very different way, and I realised with the people in business, they just need practical tools, they don’t want to have any colour, anything fancy, they just want the best practise, have a go now, solve my problem now. And young people, of the generation I work with, want to have a go and learn and fail in a safe environment and use the tools to help themselves have this idea and work on it.

So it’s a bit more now… we’ve had to design quite a universal model and material to accompany our way of working and hit those two markets quite well. And engage people in a positive way, because you can talk at people all you want, but they really, really need to have a go. So hence the quick, simple and proven, have a go, learn, do and fail and share with people and keep on the learning journey.

Alison Jones:                        And those differences you’ve seen between the two generations there, which I think is interesting, the digital, analogue thing, what does that mean for business books in the future do you think? As the Gen Ys grow and as they become the leaders of organisations, where do you see the business book going?

Dan Underwood:               I think the business book is in an evolutionary stage, because of the demand of culture really. People are evolving and consuming content differently, the physical book, I think, is something that a certain market will highly… I’ll put it this way, it’s like the gaming wars between Xbox and PlayStation. You’re going to have a digital generation verses an analogue generation, I personally like the print book, it’s just a nice experience, but the digital side reaches a wider audience more instantly.

The investment is lower, so people can come in, have a go, drop it if they don’t want and move on. And also the journey with your user is moved from just purchasing the book and that’s the end of it, to now a long term link in with social media, customer relationship management stuff, branding is another one that’s moved it forwards.

So it depends on what the values you’re bringing in, long term not short term, and if your book can sustain that, and there’s a conversation after, hence the pebble drop. And I think that’s where it’s going to go, this will be the first of many, so if you’re going to have, for example, a business book, where are you going to go next? Hence the second bounce.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah I really agree, and I think also it’s that sort of complex environment and that online and offline touch points. And the book, it’s still, you’re right, particularly a print book, it’s still a gorgeous experience.

Especially, you’ve got a lovely sort of square format and the colour pages and stuff, and you can do things with a book that… you can have a relationship with a reader, in terms of the amount of time that they’re willing to invest in it and the way that they engage with it.

But if there’s nothing behind it, if they can’t then go on and look at your videos or read your blog or connect with you and watch a video on YouTube or something… it’s got to be part of that bigger picture, hasn’t it.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah it’s the user experience: everyone’s, like I said, needs are different. Everyone’s a consumer, regardless of what it is and if someone likes what you do, and especially likes what you just said, so for example, in regards to yourself, I saw one of the articles you did and I was able to take a journey down there and find out more at my own pace because you laid the pathways.

You made the time to create something and had the system all in place to engage with anyone who’s willing to do that and that relationship moves forward and so instead of going and trying to hit everyone and trying to please everyone, look at the people you’re talking to and invest in them, because they are going to be the ones that lead you into the markets that you really want to go. And always design it well, and listen, so many people are out there talking so much they don’t spend any time listening and that’s the key bit. If you want to be a good talker, be a good listener first.

Alison Jones:                        That’s what my granny said, God gave you one mouth and two ears.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah it’s very old school – that’s the best thing about the evolution of the book and business books, the old ways are still there, I wouldn’t call it old, they just worked back then, they’re still applicable now-

Alison Jones:                        They’re just true aren’t they?

Dan Underwood:               Yeah I know, so you don’t just go, oh the world is different, oh that’s fantastic, well we have to invent the wheel again. Hang on, stop, look at what already works and then move that forward. Innovation isn’t always a massive change leap, it’s normally just a little shift, you know, like beans on toast doesn’t work oh great I’ll have some cheese on that, oh I’ll maybe put some Marmite, so you kind of look at things a bit simply, you don’t have to be the cleverest guy in the room to make an innovation. It’s usually the guy who’s the simplest going, I don’t understand 90% of that but I can have a go at this 10% and that’s normally enough.

Alison Jones:                        I can put a bit of Marmite under that. Yeah.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah and you kind of go, wow, great, fantastic, I’m not Gordon Ramsey but I can make a grilled cheese sandwich and that’s enough for me.

Alison Jones:                        Stop it, I’m really quite hungry now. We talked about the future of business books: where do you see ArtOf going and what’s the role of the book particularly – because obviously that’s my focus – how’s that going to help you get to the next place that you need to be?

Dan Underwood:               The next place really is, our stuff is there to be used, hence the toolkit. We’ve created something that anyone can come in and have a go at, our next model really is we’ve created something, we want a relationship with people that want to use it and take it forward and us work together in a collaborative way and we’ve built a resource platform. Linked, for example, the print book and the iBook are like product one and we’ve got product two, which is the app, which is a mobile version of the toolkit, which you can carry in your pocket. So pretty much, you can have your phone and the iBook on your phone and you’ve got a business toolkit you can use your entire career and have a go.

And we’ve put a simple system in place where you can share that with other people because its all about, I’ve used this tool, I’ve learned my bits, can have a conversation with say, Alison, about, oh I’ve got a publication over here. They’ve brought something to the table that you can converse over the common ground bit. I see we’re involved in helping people move our stuff forward and see where it can be used.

It’s a simple kind of system and we want to be part of the conversation and make things better because we’ve taken it so far, let’s work together, the only way forward if you want to succeed in life is together, so that’s our next bit and have that conversation and maybe put it into our own books. Because that’s the next stage is move it forward, real people using it and seeing what they can have a go.

We’ve done a paint brush and paper, here guys have a go, and cultures are going to add to it as well, which is brilliant because you see the world in one way, other people maybe see it different and they’re going to shift a business model and take it to areas you don’t have a clue about which would be great, because that’s an experience and another opportunity to learn. And this is the first of four books, which are basically going to be a live series, the next one is Art of Discovery, there are like sub-brands in there. And that’s how you learn to learn and have a go, so we’re testing this out and quite rigorously putting everything together. But this is a long term plan and we’re in it for the long haul.

Alison Jones:                        Love it. And I love that example of once you’ve created it – and you do the work up front don’t you, you have to create those models, you have to create that intellectual property – and then don’t just put it out in one way, actually think about all the different ways that you can present it and use it and really leverage the heck out of it, I love that.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, I think I was listening to one of your podcasts and there was a gentleman going he uses the business book as a replacement for a business development manager.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, that was Dan Priestley, that’s right.

Dan Underwood:               And I was like, well done mate, because he’d have to pay them, I think he said $50,000 a year, it works for you day in day out. I said yeah, the one bit he missed off is, you do need also, business is still done face to face and the world still revolves around people, you need this kind of human element to support it still, it still needs an ecosystem.

Alison Jones:                        Exactly, and the book’s job is to bring people into that ecosystem isn’t it?

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, hence the pebble drop thing, I used to say that to a lot of people. Don’t always try and look at everyone else and go what are they doing, I’m going to copy it, the trick is look at yourself and have a journey about yourself and go I can have go at that and you can just move out. Always go to the edge of your comfort zone and push past it, but always start with you. Because if you go from the inside out you can always go unlimited, if you start from the outside coming in… you got nowhere you’re just blocked. So don’t try and please anyone, design something that you would like to use and then see if the world likes it.

Alison Jones:                        See I was going to just ask you what’s your best tip for a business author and I’ve got a horrible feeling you’ve just given it to me, is that it? Because it’s a cracking tip.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, well, I’m not sure I’m probably the right person to give you a tip about doing business books really, I’m just a guy that does some bits. As far as I’m concerned I think it’s more about the person. Don’t do it for any other reason but for your own. And I think there’s a quote here that I wanted to say, which is Alan Turing, which is the guy who did the enigma machine thing, and his quote is simple, it says, “Sometimes it is the people that no one imagines anything of, that turn out to do the things that no one can ever imagine.”

I think the limitation is always… there’s so many people out there that are actually unsung heroes, but doubt kills them, they stop always at the water’s edge, being afraid. But doubt kills more dreams than failure ever would and business books as well, don’t always look at everyone else and going that’s the best way of doing it, take the best bits, apply it to you, have a go, because it’s a learning journey and you have to be along for the long haul, don’t just do it because it’s the new fad and you’re exited at this point, can you follow it through and does it mean something to you? Because one day someone’s going to ask you the question, why do you do it? And if it’s money, then great, but there’s more to life than that.

Alison Jones:                        And of course the ecosystem is there now to enable you to try things out in a way that it never used to be. You talk about print on demand and the different sort of iBook stuff, you can do this stuff in a way that you never used to be able to because the gate keepers controlled it and there had to be a certain print run up front. So absolutely, there’s nothing, there literally is nothing holding you back from giving it a go, brilliant.

Dan Underwood:               And the credibility as well, self publishing used to be seen as like the “oh don’t really talk about them” because they’re not credible-

Alison Jones:                        Vanity publishing it was known as…

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, everyone would kind of like taunt you and I’m going these are independent people who have an Independent voice, especially now with a fractured society, everyone has a voice but everyone’s talking at each other, spend some time, understand what you’re saying and then put it out in a way that’s credible.

I think most people spend so much time on trying to create noise and be heard they’re not actually listening to what they’re actually saying, they’re playing reactive not proactive and I think if people just spend a bit of time and just reflected a bit and went, “hang on, am I part of the problem, or am I part of the solution?” And I think that’s a good filter for most things in life really, not just business books.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah absolutely. That’s a tip, thank you Dan, I love that. Now I always ask my guests to recommend another guest on the show, so somebody that has something interesting to say about the business of business books, who do you think I should talk to?

Dan Underwood:               Well, personally for me, for a guy that doesn’t read much stuff, more of the digital generation type thing. But the guy that kind of hocked up to me was Reid Hoffman, the co-founder and chairman of LinkedIn. He’s written a few books, and he’s a good model really, he’s a guy who did one thing and kind of went, “Hang on I’m pretty good at doing this thing, I’m going to move on to different areas.”

So he’s written a few books, there’s The Startup of You, which is quite good and something called The Alliance as well, which he wrote with three other people. But also he does podcasts as well, so for me, who struggles with reading books, I like audiobooks, that’s awesome, so the stuff that you do and him are very similar, and it reaches the audience on a more human level and he’s brilliant.

Alison Jones:                        I love that I do something similar to Reid, like, me and Reid Hoffman, we do this… I love that.

Dan Underwood:               I think it’s the human thing, he maybe… I think people are put on a pedestal and they seem as this kind of invincible person, and they project a version of what is correct onto them, they’re just people like anyone else, despite how high you go, and he’s kind of kept his humbleness there and figured out going, “I’m really good at talking to people and getting the story out.” And he’s just done it different industries, books, podcasts, whatever, and it’s great to see that.

Alison Jones:                        That’s a great recommendation, he’s got one of my favourite quotes of all time, which is that thing about, “If you’re not embarrassed about who you were a year ago you’re not learning fast enough” or you’re not moving fast enough or something. Which is terrific.

Dan Underwood:               Yeah, I’m a different person than I was yesterday than I am today, that type of thing.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah I’ll definitely ask him, thank you.

Dan Underwood:               And the other person that we both know very well, is a lady called Jasmin Kirkbride-

Alison Jones:                        Oh yeah, I’d love to talk to Jasmin.

Dan Underwood:               Who’s an amazing young lady, who’s done some amazing bits. Again I came across her stuff in the same place I came across you and I followed her stuff for a while and kind of we talk about on the same lines. And its great to see that she became a publisher and did a load of stuff and actually I bought one of her books called Boost, which is supercharging your confidence, I actually bought it for a female friend of mine.

And because of the way it’s written and using the mindfulness stuff it’s very human, it has that heart to it and warmth, which unfortunately might get lost in translation when putting it down into a book but she has a knack of both working in the industry of publishing, and understanding the business and creating a book. So if you’re looking for someone who’s an all rounder and has a really good handle on the realities of publishing and books in general, she’s probably the best and has a good warmth and genuineness to her, which is quite unique.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah brilliant, you don’t have to sell Jasmin to me, I think she’s terrific, yeah, great. Two wonderful ideas, thank you. Brilliant. And if people want to find out more about you Dan and about ArtOf and the book Art of Enterprise, where should they go?

Dan Underwood:               Sure. Well we’re currently in the process of updating our website and moving that forward, but the URL is pretty much ArtOf LTD, which is limited, .co.uk. And you can follow us on Twitter at ArtOfEnterprise, oh and you can follow me if you want, which is just DanUnderwoodETP.

Alison Jones:                        ETP, brilliant. I’ll put all those links up on the show notes so people can find you as well. Thank you. We ranged across such a wide variety of stuff there, I love that and its not often I get to talk about digital books and the future of the book actually, not nearly often enough, so I enjoyed that, thank you. Thanks for your time today.

Dan Underwood:               No, my pleasure. Thank you very much.

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