Episode 37 – Personal Branding with Robin Waite

Robin WaiteRobin Waite was a web designer who got increasingly frustrated with clients who only thought about websites. He understood, although they didn’t, that your website is only part of your online strategy and your personal brand. Online Business Startup was written out of frustration, but the result was the transformation of Rob’s own personal brand.

This is also a masterclass in how to write a book at speed: despite having a new baby and a full-time job, Rob managed to dictate, transcribe and edit his bestselling book in just six weeks, and he shares the full details of how he did it in this interview.

‘My book’s sold several thousand copies, my videos are going into tens of thousands of views across Facebook and Youtube and Vimeo. I’ve couldn’t have had that impact without having the book and the personal brand and this whole ecosystem set around it.’

This is an interview packed with practical ideas: don’t listen unless you’re ready to be challenged and to take action.


website: http://robinwaite.com/

Rob on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RobinMWaite

Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OnlineBizStartup

Online Business Startup: The entrepreneur’s guide to launching a fast, lean and profitable online venture

Alison Jones:  Hello and welcome to The Extraordinary Business Book Club, and today I’m here with Robin Waite, who is a business coach with a background in business and online strategy, he’s founder of the Coconut Group which specializes in helping businesses with their branding, web and marketing strategies and he’s also the author of the best selling book Online Business Startup. Hello, Rob.

Robin Waite:  Hello Alison, thank you very much for inviting me onto your show.

Alison Jones:  Oh, it’s really good to have you here. We should have a disclaimer here that we know each other from quite a long way back, don’t we?

Robin Waite:  Yes!

Alison Jones:  Rob built my site, so we do go back a long way. Rob your background is really fascinating, and I just wanted to start by unpacking that a little bit, because you used to be a web developer, back in the day, and you’ve been a business analyst, I know. Tell us how you got from where you were to where you are now as a business coach and an author.

Robin Waite:  Cool, so yes, I started out life as… I left school as a business analyst, and did that for four years or so. I always knew, when I left school I wanted to start a business bit of education back in 2000, before the web really blossomed. I didn’t really know exactly what it was that I wanted to do so, the business analyst job, when I started there, there were fifteen people I think, when I left four years later there was only eight and five of those got made redundant because of the systems and processes that I implemented within that business.

Alison Jones:  You put yourself out of a job, basically.

Robin Waite:  Well yes, one of those people that got made redundant was me actually, and then I had a really good opportunity at that time, I was starting to build websites for people on a freelance basis. One of the guys who also used to work at that same company where I was a business analyst, he was doing something similar, so we combined and set up a business, and then spent the best part of a decade basically building websites for people, doing logo design, graphics, advertising and all sorts of things like that as well, but predominantly web design.

About two, three maybe even a little bit more years, a few more years ago, it became quite heavily commoditized, so by that I mean, free DIY, one on one, Wix, WordPress, those are all the things you used to hear about it. I realized, I was having some very awkward, difficult conversations with people, because they would come into my office and we were in the very premium end in what we did, we were very good. We still are very good.

Alison Jones:  You are, yes.

Robin Waite:  I was having these conversations, like, my brothers, sisters, aunt, can do this for five hundred quid, and I was like “well yeah, go and get them to do it, brilliant, I’ll probably see you in six months’ time, when it’s all gone horribly wrong and you’re not getting any customers.” All of those really frustrating things that used to come out of the sales conversations, I was like, I just want to… I’m fed up with having those conversations, I just want to stick it into a book, kind of get a load of stuff of my chest.

There was another I remember really explicitly, there was one conversation which I had with somebody whereby I’d gone through the usual sales patter and then they wanted to grow their business from I think it was about quarter of a million up to a seven-figure business. They were focused on the one thing, the website was the one thing that was going to change their business, turn their business around, and quadruple the size of their turnover. I said to them, “Yeah, we can certainly build you a fantastic website, but can we talk about your logo, because it looks like your three year old daughter drew it in Paint, and that’s not really going to reflect a million pound business.”

The response I got was, “No, no, I just want you to build me a website.” That I just found really frustrating, I was like “There’s more to me than just building websites.” I had by this point 15 years’ worth of experience, working in business, in and around business. Three hundred and fifty clients we had through the Coconut Group, through the web design business. All sorts of different shapes and sizes. That’s where Online Business Startup, came from, it was born out of frustration. The book itself, I didn’t really write the book, the book has kind of written me, like I’m in a very different place, business-wise now.

Alison Jones:  Yes, and I want to explore that later, because I’ve been really interested watching that progress of the book and then, how your business has changed. Just before we go onto that though, there’s a really practical thing that I wanted to pull out, that I know you and I have spoken about before, which I thought was fascinating.

Robin Waite:  Yes.

Alison Jones:  You took a really unusual approach to actually physically writing the book, didn’t you? You’re not one of those people who just sits down and works in your attic, and writes for the whole day. How did you actually go about writing this book?

Robin Waite:  Well it goes back to the system analyst days, where I’m just like, “There has to be an easier way than this.” I’ll tell you what, it was really fascinating actually. I was listening to somebody speak, and they started talking about the numbers of words per minute, that when you talk, how fast people talk. It’s interesting because typically we talk about hundred words per minute, but my typing is, despite the fact I spent all day every day on a computer, my typing at best is probably about forty five, fifty words per minute, so half of what I can talk at.

I thought, well, how about if I dictated it? And I broke down my book, I wanted to do roughly 30,000 words, I knew that I wanted to cover business startup, online, and then social structure, so that’s three sections in the book. I would do 10 chapters for each one, of roughly 1,000 words each so that’s my 30,000 words written. I worked out that for every 10 minutes’ worth of audio it was about 1,000 words’ worth of post-edited content, so that was for each chapter, 10 minutes worth of audio. I set about, I think it was June in 2013, it was 3 months after my first daughter was born as well so I was very time-strapped.

On my journey into work, I used to record for about 15 minutes. I’d choose a chapter, do 5 bullet per chapter, talk about each bullet in 2 minutes, so I’d have 10 minutes per chapter recorded, and then during my lunch break I actually sat down and transcribed it myself, and post edited it. I realized, I had several peers who were writing books at the same time, and they did exactly what you said, they were sitting down on their laptop typing away, they’d send off their manuscripts to the publisher, and then have this lengthy process of then post editing it. I realized it, when I was transcribing it and shuffling around the order of the paragraphs, getting everything kind of organized at my chapters, when I sent it to my publisher she went, “Brilliant, this is pretty much good to go”. Obviously with the proofreading and things like that.

It just meant I didn’t have that lengthy post editing job to do, as well as write it, and then get the transcript back, and have to go through the whole thing. It kind of took care of itself really.

Alison Jones:  How long did the whole thing take from that first journey in the car where you pressed record, to submitting the manuscript?

Robin Waite:  It’s an interesting one actually. Whilst it saved me time in the immediate process. In June 2013, I wrote 30,000 words, basically. I got that nailed. I knew when I’d done the 30,000 words there was a little bit more but by this point my mind was at, my brain was actually a little bit frazzled. Life took over with the kids and stuff, and I actually took a break until I had a holiday in October later on that year, I went to Portugal. I wrote another 20,000 words, 25,000 words in fact, during that week alone, using the same methodology which I’d used previously. I kind of just rinsed and repeated it. In November I sent the transcript to my publisher.

It was 6 weeks’ work effectively, but it was spread out because I had that gap in between.

Alison Jones:  Did the gap in between serve you?

Robin Waite:  Good question. I think it did actually, because it was time to reflect on what I’d already written, and also the realization that “No, it wasn’t quite complete.” Yes, I’d say it served me really, really well actually. That’s not to say that actually that 30,000 words didn’t have value, because it interested me 3 years down the line, there are parts in that final section in the book which I think it of started to get, maybe, and I don’t mind admitting it, a little bit out of date, because social media moved so fast these days.

I now have to go back and either rewrite it, or I had a conversation with my publisher and she felt that maybe if even I could drop it and make the book a bit more light weight, because the business bit, and the online bit, carried so much weight. The social media bit, you can just go onto YouTube, and find a lot of that information.

Alison Jones:  Yes.

Robin Waite:  Yes, definitely the break helped.

Alison Jones:  I just think that is a brilliant system. The beauty, the simplicity of it, just sort of bowled me over when I heard it, and I think you know if anyone just listen to going “Oh I haven’t got time to write a book”, Rob managed it.

Robin Waite:  I did that when my first daughter was born, and a lot of people again think, I set out 30,000 words for my book, but – would you agree? – books don’t have to be 30,000 word monoliths nowadays, they can be 12,000, 15,000 words.

Alison Jones:  Yes, it depends what you want. If you want it printed with a spine, then 30,000 is probably about the minimum to be honest because you don’t get a decent spine with much less than that.

Robin Waite:  Yes.

Alison Jones:  You don’t need necessarily to have a book on a shelf with a spine, you know, lots of people prefer to just read online, Kindle these days.

Robin Waite:  Yes, absolutely, an audio book as well, I’m a big fan, despite the fact that I wrote a book, I prefer listening to books, again it fits around my busy lifestyle, flipping between family and nursery and work, and meetings and stuff. I can just absorb 10 or 15 minutes a time, you know, in the car.

Alison Jones:  I recently discovered I can plug in my Kindle to the audio jack, and use the text-to-speech thing, it is a bit like being read to by a robot, but it’s amazing how quickly you get used to it, and you can also increase the speed slightly so you can get a massive amount of information in quite a short journey.

Robin Waite:  I discovered that as well, because you can do the same on Audible, in the app. You can turn the speed up, but it does sound… you have to train yourself, you can’t jump to 2x speed, or 5x speed. You have to kind of go, 1 and a quarter, 1 and a half, 1 and three quarters and kind of gradually step it up. Your brain just can’t cope with it basically, it’s too quick.

Alison Jones:  I have had people say that they’ve had to slow me down, I talk ridiculously fast, it will be interesting to know what my average words per minute is. I’ve had people say that they have to slow podcasts down from me.

Robin Waite:  Well, you know what, I think a lot of people are like that, and it’s not until somebody tells like, I did a presentation course too, because I’m doing a lot of speaking at the moment, speaking engagements. I thought I’d best go and learn how to present properly. The guy leading the course called me the Gatling gun.

Alison Jones:  That’s not a good thing, is it?

Robin Waite:  I quite liked it, because it’s quite a useful… he talked about picture words, and actually this is quite an interesting thing from writing a book as well, we get so caught up with using like, three-letter acronyms and things like that, in business and jargon and all that sort of stuff. For me picture words, like telling a story, within a book is actually really, really important, and again I had a couple of case studies in my first book. Certainly for my future books I’d do a lot more, just case studies and telling stories through it, like narratives.

The Gatling gun thing is interesting, because when I’m speaking and I realize that I’m speaking too fast, I, not out loud, because I’d look like a fool, but I kind of say to myself, “oh, the Gatling gun’s off.” It slows me down, it makes me stop.

Alison Jones:  Yes. It’s interesting isn’t it? I think there are two, well I know I do it for two reasons, one, I’m excited, I’ve got stuff to say that’s interesting and engaging and I get carried away. Two, it’s a bit of nerves I think, and you just genuinely don’t realize how quickly you’re speaking.

I was at Brookes yesterday, I lecture at Brookes, and one of the students at the back cautiously put her hand up and said, “Could you slow down please?” When I talk slowly it feels as though I’m sort of comedy slow, so yes, really interesting. I think, you know what? We need a speaker. We need a speaking coach on this podcast and talk about this stuff.

Robin Waite:  You would be amazed I think how many similarities there are between speaking and writing books, because again, part of the Gatling gun thing is, for me is the number of ideas which I throw into the mix. I think the brain is only capable of absorbing between 5 and 7 ideas per minute. Imagine a quick reader, flicking through a book, if it’s just overloaded with ideas and concepts, and probably really useful stuff. There’s only so much the human brain can take in. The same rules apply I think to speaking and books as well.

Alison Jones:  That’s a really interesting point. In that whole, you know, that speaking paradigm, tell them what you’re going to say, say it, and then tell them what you said. You almost need that kind of structure in the book as well to allow people to absorb the point.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, absolutely and that’s why when in my book, I was very regimented in making sure that I have top tips throughout it. I sign-posted people to the 5 important things in each chapter, and then also at the end I put a summary, of these 5 key points and that, it’s really interesting if you look through the reviews that I’ve got on Amazon for the book, that’s the thing that most people talk about, because it’s that bridge between chapters that come like “right, I can finish this chapter, move on to the next one, and know exactly what that chapter was about.”

Alison Jones:  Yeah.

Robin Waite:  I didn’t do the introduction necessarily so well, but then the titles I think in my chapters tended to speak for themselves. Certainly the summary section is really vital and top tips, sign-posting people, is critical.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, absolutely and you do get a sense of that I can be sure that I understood what you’re saying because you told me what the key bits are and I get them, so I can move on.

Robin Waite:  Yeah.

Alison Jones:  I think the other interesting thing about the way that you approached it is that the book sounds so direct, it sounds like you’re talking to me, because you were.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, absolutely, yeah, 100%, and again that’s something which everybody is mentioned to me, as well. That’s how I am, I like, I take people at face value and I kind of expect them to, I want to that’s how I educate people, how I teach people. I wouldn’t want it to sound any other way.

Alison Jones:  I remember talking to Natalie Reynolds, about her book on negotiation, and she completely ripped up the first manuscript, because when she read it back, she realized she was subconsciously trying to sound like a middle-aged white man in a suit, because that’s who she thought, and she just then sort of spoke the thing out load, and redid the whole thing in about 3 weeks.

Robin Waite:  Yeah.

Alison Jones:  It had that immediacy and her authentic voice behind it, so, yeah. You didn’t have to rip up the first manuscript, so yay you. We talked a bit earlier about how the book has written your career. Let’s go back to that, because I think that’s really interesting, tell me how it’s changed things for you and how it integrates into your business.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, so one which I say to people is that like … They ask, “How much of you did you put into the book?” I said “Well, I didn’t really define the book, the book has defined me.” I think it was just the confidence thing, if I’m honest. You have to see your thoughts in black and white to really believe it.

That guy is an exceptional web developer, web designer. We developed lots of great websites but that’s sort of all we did, and I had all these wonderful ideas but never had the confidence really to kind of put them out there. When I put it down in the book, I almost then started to believe them, if that make sense.

Alison Jones:  Yeah.

Robin Waite:  What that meant is that it’s given me a really powerful and strong voice when I have conversations in business nowadays with people, not only do you have the authority that the book has given you, but also you have the authority in voice, and again the two complement each other really well, because I think you get, you know about the different types of people, some people react to the personal approach, speaking to you face to face. Some people see a book as being authoritative, and having these different tools in your armoury, I think is absolutely vital.

Once people then meet you, and realize you have got a message and something to say, all of a sudden it’s just opened my world up, especially. One thing I wanted to get out of it, was to do more speaking engagements and just to share my ideas. I’ve got 8 booked in the next 6 weeks I think, starting, I’ve got one first thing tomorrow morning.

I couldn’t say 100% that I would have got those if I didn’t have the book there. What it’s also meant is that people can see the way that my ideas is structured through the book. As a result they kind of said, “Right, that one specific thing, that one chapter in the book, I’ve got this problem with my business, I think you can help me fix it.”

That’s why the business coaching has really taken off, because there is just demand, very specific things within the book that people want help within their business. They just want a, not a short cut, they just want a bit of an outside perspective, and a nudge in the right direction. That’s why over the last two years now, I’ve been developing the coaching business on the side of the branding agency. Yeah, the book definitely helped define me, it gave me a heck of a lot of confidence, and it helped me find my voice, basically.

Alison Jones:  I love that because it very much mirrors, you start sort of at the website, and you saw the website as an integral part of the business. You were just saying about the frustration that people not seeing that. That’s where it’s developed. I had exactly the same philosophy about the book, is that the book, yes, it’s one thing on it’s own, but actually it’s not, it’s an integral part of the business, and as you know, I use a lot of coaching with that as well. It’s got to build up the whole thing and everything is integrated, I just find that, I was amazed that more people don’t see it like that.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, I know, it still amazes me as well, and I hope you don’t mind me saying this, but sometimes it pisses me off when people say “Oh, I’ve always wanted to write a book.” You know, just get out there and bloody do it. I know what it’s done for me, and I know like in practical terms, some people just don’t have it in them to, the discipline or whatever to write it. I just think it can be complete, I mean it changed my life. It’s had that big of an impact on my life, and I’ll be writing more books, I’ve gotten halfway through a couple at the moment, actually. I kind of got that. I need to focus a little bit more, again I also feel that the next book will come at the right time for my business.

Alison Jones:  Absolutely.

Robin Waite:  It will be, I’ve set a rough deadline for Spring next year, so it will be two years roughly apart between the launch of the two books. I think you also need to create a bit of a legacy and I didn’t want to be seen as that one-trick pony, because I’ve still got loads of ideas.

Alison Jones:  Absolutely, and that said, the book is just a snapshot in time, isn’t it? Then your thoughts have developed along, and it’ll be time for the next one.

Robin Waite:  Yeah.

Alison Jones:  I’m imagining that you probably do quite interesting stuff in terms of linking your book with your website, so just tell me a little bit about how that works.

Robin Waite:  For a long time I didn’t have a very clear call to action at the end of my book, believe it or not. It was only about 6 months or so ago that I realized this. I realized that, and I think that is why I migrated into the coaching because I can add much more value by giving people coaching and consulting based advice now, than I can just building somebody a website even.

Websites do take up so much time. Basically there’s for me, the link isn’t… the book and the website just form part of this marketing ecosystem, if you like. They cross-pollinate each other, so I will direct people from the book to the websites, my social media channels, to all sorts of different things.

Then vice versa, I used the book to leverage my marketing and my PR and my speech engagements and things like that. It’s not how the book links to the website, necessarily, it’s how everything is just set in this big ecosystem now of my personal brand. That is something that was missing for a very long time, again it is about the confidence, about putting myself out there, and it’s not really – I’m waving my fingers like bunny ears – it’s not like ‘celebrity status’, in inverted commas…

Alison Jones:  You rock star…

Robin Waite:  Yeah, yeah. I did a speaking engagement a couple of weeks ago, again this is all come off the back of the book. I did the speaking engagement, literally I couldn’t walk from one end of this 50-metre-long room, auditorium, to the other, without literally getting business cards thrust in my hand, people shaking my hand, “Oh that was a great talk which you gave.” “I love your book, I’ve got a copy sat on my desk.” All that sort of stuff. It’s really fun, I’m not going to lie, there’s a really … The thing for me is, my goal was always to help as many businesses as I possibly could.

The web design business was one by one, by one, by one. My books sold several thousand copies, my videos is going into tens of thousands of views across Facebook and Youtube and Vimeo. I’ve couldn’t have had that impact, again, without having the book and the personal brand and this whole ecosystem set around it.

Alison Jones:  Brilliant, I love that idea of the personal brand ecosystem, that’s a great phrase. Given all that, what’s one best bit of advice that you would give to a first time business book author? Somebody listened to this who’s been really inspired, what practical advice would you give them?

Robin Waite:  I think I’ve used this term with you before, JFTI.

Alison Jones:  I’m really worried about my iTunes team rating at the moment.

Robin Waite:  All right, I won’t say, just do it. I suppose I’ve got loads of tips, if you don’t mind me sharing them.

Alison Jones:  Yes, yes…

Robin Waite:  First of all, I’m sure you, because this is part of your programme as well, isn’t it? When you coach your coach potential authors, first time book authors. Like the planning stage is absolutely key.

Alison Jones:  Absolutely.

Robin Waite:  Like having a good story, has to have a beginning, a middle and a end. Make sure you’ve got a very clear idea about your chapter structure. It was one of the first things I did and it just meant that when I went to dictate it in the car, I can jump in the car, know that, “okay, I’ve covered off chapter thirteen, talking about testing your website, right, bang, ten minutes, off we go.”

Having that systematized approach, just meant that when I have … Because the thing is, nobody is going to sit down and type for twenty hours on the stretch to wright out a thirty thousand word book, or nobody’s going to spend the six hours I spent dictating it all in one, you could do it in a day, but it will be a challenge.

Whereas having a structure that you can just go “right, I’ve got 20 minutes, bang, off we go”, I think is vital and just challenge yourself just to do it basically.

Alison Jones:  Brilliant, any more?

Robin Waite:  I think that’s probably enough to be getting on with, isn’t it?

Alison Jones:  I think so, fantastic, thank you.

Robin Waite:  Starting is by far and away the hardest bit, so start it, just do it.

Alison Jones:  Start, yes, brilliant. Thank you. Don’t just sit down and write with a blank page, do the planning, start with the planning and then just get it.

Robin Waite:  Yeah.

Alison Jones:  I always ask people on the show to recommend a guest to me so someone with something interesting to say about business, business books, or just building your personal brand ecosystem, generally. Who do you think would be a really good guest for this show?

Robin Waite:  Oh goodness, I know that you’ve done you’re, previously, with one of my idols, I know you’ve asked Daniel Priestly-

Alison Jones:  Working on that.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, you’re working on it. His books were actually the thing which triggered me in terms of getting my started on that journey through writing, so-

Alison Jones:  The Key Person of Influence-

Robin Waite:  Yeah, so it’s the Key Person of Influence. Entrepreneur Revolution, actually, was is a book which I read first and foremost. That kind of kick-started everything for me, so hopefully you can get him on. There’s a really interesting guy, actually, who I think you can probably speak to, his name is Joe Gregory, he works for Rethink Press. They’re authoring outfit, but he’s got a very awesome way of looking at business self help books.

I would say that he was one of the biggest differences in terms of the success of my book, because he just looked at my book from a business perspective. I think sometimes as authors we maybe lose sight of that a little bit, so Joe Gregory definitely. He’s co-authored of a couple of books with Lucy McCarraher…

Alison Jones:  Yes.

Robin Waite:  I think that’s probably it for now. There’s another really interesting guy actually, called Dan Meredith. He’s another business coach, I think if your … I’ll tell you’re readers check out his book, it’s a really great book. I can’t say the title, because it will set your profanity filter off again. Actually if you invited him on the show it will definitely set the profanity filter off. It’s just sign pasting people in direction of the good book actually.

Alison Jones:  Could you give us a clue, I know some people are going to Google now.

Robin Waite:  How to be Effing Awesome is the title of the book.

Alison Jones:  How to be flipping awesome, got it.

Robin Waite:  He’s a brilliant guy, really lovely bloke, but swears like a trooper unfortunately. His book inspired me to go out and make that transition from just having this idea and this voice to actually go out and get on the stage and shout about it, and not really care too much about.

There are going to be people who like you, there going to be people who dislike you, and to not really care about those who dislike us, because it’s all about building our own little tribe, that’s what personal branding is all about.

Alison Jones:  You know what? Right at the end, that is such a profound point. I know an awful lot of people struggle with that idea of visibility, and you know what if people don’t like it, well what if they don’t? Some people will, some people won’t. It’s really not the end of the world.

Robin Waite:  Exactly, I’ve got one-star reviews on my book, and thankfully not many. I’ve got most my book, 140 out of the 145 reviews, are five-star, four- and five-star. People get hung up on those. I did, the first I got one star, I was like “How dare they, how dare they write that about my book?”

Then I was just like “Well, I’m not for everybody.” I don’t go around, walk into every shop and buy everything that I see. If somebody doesn’t get it, fine, there will be plenty, of 130, 140 other people who did get it. That is more important. It’s funny, because I see a lot of people very fearful of putting themselves out there, and they might face some criticism, and it’s like, “Okay, you will get criticised, no matter what you do, it’s how you deal with it which is the important bit”.

Again it’s the frustration for me when I hear people say that, I just think that that holds you back, just go for it.

Alison Jones:  I love that you’ve smuggled in an extra bit of advice for authors right at the end. Brilliant.

Robin Waite:  Yeah.

Alison Jones:  Fantastic. What a pleasure to talk to you, Rob. Thank you. Now if people want to find out more about you, about your business coaching, about Coconut Group, where can they go?

Robin Waite:  Cool, so Facebook is one of the best ways to get a hold of me at the moment. If you go to groups, forward slash, “online biz startup”, that’s my group which is linked to the book. On Facebook it’s Robin M. Waite, Twitter @RobinMWaite. I’m also on LinkedIn, or you can go to RobinWaite.com. There’s a few bits of information in there. I do also, if anybody, let’s do a shameless plug here?

Alison Jones:  Yeah, go ahead. You’ve earned it.

Robin Waite:  For the business coaching I offer a free one hour consultation as well, so if anybody is interested in learning about how business coach might be able to help their business, they get in touch and like I said my niche is kind of around web branding, advertising digital, but I also do some really interesting stuff around product architecture and pricing as well.

Alison Jones:  Yeah, and I can vouch for all of that, I had a session with Robin, he’s absolutely superb, really really good. So yeah, grab that with both hands. Awesome. We’ve got to finish now Robin, but thank you so much, I really really enjoyed that conversation, I think there’s massive amount of content in there for people, I’m sure they’ll be listening to it for three or four times, so thank you so much.

Robin Waite:  Yeah, Gattling gun, the idea of mine. Pum, pum, pum, pum.

Alison Jones:  Slow it down people, slow it down and listen to it again. I’ll see you soon Rob, bye.

Robin Waite:  Thanks Alison, it’s a pleasure.

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