Episode 233 – Loving your imposter with Rita Clifton

Rita CliftonImposter syndrome gets a bad rap, but it can be rocket fuel, says brand guru Rita Clifton.

‘It’s a drive, you know, go with it and use it…. you worry that you’re not going to be good enough, and you stretch yourself. That’s when you grow most.’

As well as talking about her own extraordinary career, from a working-class family to Cambridge and then on to top roles at Saatchi & Saatchi, Interbrand and more, plus a portfolio of non-executive directorships for businesses and environmental groups, she tells me how writing has become a passion and how she goes about it.

A deeply satisfying conversation, full of inspiration and also practical tips for working and writing better.


LINKS:

Rita’s site: https://www.ritaclifton.com/

Rita on Twitter: https://twitter.com/cliftonbrand

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

The FT/McKinsey Business Book of the Year longlist 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/a360660e-9ade-4eca-9161-7f2ab1b8655e

The EBBC Summer Reading List 2020: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/34626998-alison-jones?shelf=ebbc-summer-reading-list-2020

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: https://alisonjones.leadpages.co/proposal-challenge/

Virtual Writing Retreat wait list: https://alisonjones.lpages.co/virtual-writing-retreat/

Alison Jones: I’m here today with Rita Clifton, who is a business leader and a bestselling author. She started her career in advertising, becoming vice chairman and strategy director at Saatchi and Saatchi. She spent 15 years as London CEO, and then chairman at Global Brand Consultancy Interbrand. And she’s advised leading companies and startups and businesses all over the world.

In 2013, she co-founded the business and brand consultancy BrandCap, which now has offices in London, New York and Hong Kong. And in addition to being a non executive director on the board of businesses, including ASOS, Nationwide and previously Bupa, her nonprofit work has included being a board trustee of the WWF, the worldwide fund for nature and a member of the UK government sustainable development commission.

She’s a regular commentator across the media, including CNN and the BBC. And she received a CBE for services to the advertising industry in 2014. And her latest book is called Love Your Imposter. So welcome to the show, Rita.

Rita Clifton: Thank you very much and thanks very much for having me and, you know, thank you for that introduction. I’m truly starting off feeling like an imposter, I think after that. So looking forward to the conversation.

Alison Jones: And this is it, isn’t it, you hear somebody read out your… and you think, ‘Well, it’s not, I mean, it sounds lovely, but it’s not really like that,’ which of course is what every woman does,

Rita Clifton: Well, apparently, I mean, when I was doing research for this book, I mean, the figures are staggering. It was something like, 70% of people recognize that they suffer from imposter syndrome. And that goes up something like 90% in the creative industries. So we’re not just talking about a small phenomenon here, we’re talking about, in some ways a normal part of the human condition and women do seem to have it slightly more than guys.

I’m just saying.

Alison Jones: Well, it’s interesting actually, because, you know, looking at your book, you didn’t gender that finding particularly, I did, because I just recognize it so much in the women that I speak to. But it’s interesting, you obviously have discovered that there is a sort of gender difference there as well.

Rita Clifton: Yes I have. And, actually what’s more interesting even, is that actually if you look into why that might be, a lot of research would tell you that, of course, women tend to be less confident about their own abilities. And we can have a discussion about how much that is biology or conditioning or bias or whatever it is.

But that is the outcome, which is women tend to judge themselves more harshly than guys do. And also again, what emerged from those findings is that men tend to find it easier to compartmentalize issues. Whereas women tend to see all the downsides and you know, all the options and things like that.

So, as I say, whatever the cause, and we need to get right to the root cause of this, because you know, it’s holding an awful lot of people back, a lot of women back from really going for leadership positions. Whatever the cause is, we’ve got to really deal with what it has created because it’s created a very uneven society, business community, leadership all over the world, and we’ve got to make a huge difference on this front if we’re going to actually see a better world for everybody.

Alison Jones: Yes. Well, I mean, I don’t think anybody’s going to argue with you on that, an awful lot rings true. And what I loved about your approach is that when you say we’ve got to deal with it, what you’re not saying is, so what we have to do is fix imposter syndrome. We have to sort of get rid of it. What you’re saying is it’s a thing and actually we can do a bit of jujitsu with it and it can help us.

So just talk us through that approach and how you stumbled on it.

Rita Clifton: So that’s really interesting, you should say jujitsu because, I’m not a great player myself. I have to say, I’m a bit of a stranger to judo and martial arts and all that thinking, although I’m very interested in other aspects of personal self development and things like that.

But it was only when I was explaining the book to somebody who happened to be a judo expert that they said, actually, what you’re describing here about loving your impostor, as opposed to fighting it, this feels a bit like judo to me, which is that you use the weight of your opponent, you know, rather than trying to fight it, you work with it and you use it.

I thought that was really interesting because I’ve read so much and also talk to people so much about how they struggle with imposter syndrome or they need to overcome it. It feels like a battle, et cetera. And actually what I’ve found over the years, I just thought, do you know, I know I’ve got this, you know, this drive, it’s a drive.

And there’s all sorts of stuff about fear of failure in that drive and not wanting to let people down and things like that. But what I have recognized is it’s a drive, you know, go with it and use it. So, I guess what I’m saying here is recognize, recognize the imposter, say hello, say thank you and recognize that actually it can make you better and it can make you improve.

And that’s actually what a lot of celebrities are now saying about, you know, their imposter syndrome. It’s actually driven them to improve and to be better.

Alison Jones: I do get that point about befriending because actually the impulse is good, isn’t it? Your impostor is trying to keep you safe. That’s all they’re trying to do. They’re trying to save you from ridicule and humiliation and being, you know, abandoned by the pack, but how do you use the drive?

How do you do that thing of using it positively? Because I love what you say about actually, do you know what any energy, is fuel if you use it right. So how do you do that?

Rita Clifton: Well, I think that certainly from my perspective, when I’ve recognized imposter syndrome and thought, Oh my God, this is going to be the time when everything goes pear shaped, I haven’t prepared enough, you know, someone’s going to tap me on the shoulder and say, actually, we’ve made a bit of a mistake, or otherwise, you’d better step aside for someone who really knows what they’re doing.

All of those things that I know some of us would really recognize, what it’s made me do is to work harder and try harder and prepare more so that you don’t find it ends up in catastrophe or whatever. Now, obviously there are some times when you think you’ve been better than others, either in meetings or relationships or presentations of whatever it is.

But in my view, as I say, you can use the Oh my God factor to really do a better job. And that’s, I guess what I’ve found over time. I mean, I first experienced it, I guess, in a way that I really recognize when I went to university – and I went back there last week, funnily enough, to talk to Mary Beard, Professor Dame Mary Beard who happened to have been the first person I met when I went up to university – and we both talked a little bit about that imposter syndrome. Oh my God, I’m here. I think they made a mistake. Maybe they got the application form in the wrong place, et cetera. But again, that makes you engage more and try harder. And similarly, when you go for big jobs or you get promoted into a position, et cetera, and you think, I don’t think I can do this, that’s the moment of biggest growth. And I know that can sound a little bit woo woo, and self development and things like that. But that is the truth. When you stretch yourself, you worry that you’re not going to be good enough, and you stretch yourself. That’s when you grow most.

Alison Jones: Oh, I’m totally behind you – just outside your comfort zone is where the magic happens. It’s weird. It’s really wonderful actually, I mean, Mary Beard always strikes me as somebody supremely happy in her own skin. It’s one of the things I love most about her, so it’s fascinating that even she’s been through it as well, or goes through it.

Rita Clifton: Yes, absolutely. And of course, you know, she has… occasionally in the academic world, you know, you can feel a bit in the minority too. So even though the numbers of students and academics and so on that isn’t so out of kilter now,  at the very senior level, you know, the professor level and so on, there is still a dearth of women and, you know, it was so interesting just as a piece on social media, not so long ago, a male business acquaintance of mine, was commenting that of course, all those countries that seems to have managed coronavirus better than others happened to be run by women, you know, including  Saint Jacinda Ardern, Jacinda for world president while I’m talking about it.

But she, you know, the people like Jacinda and also a lot of leaders in the Nordic countries, Iceland and so, and they do seem to be managing the crisis very well in contrast to maybe the more populist leaders, shall we say in the larger countries. And what this guy was saying was, you know, here’s the evidence of women doing better, it’s time for women to start taking over.

And I posted back saying, that’s great. Thanks very much for sharing that. But actually for the moment, I might just settle for 50 /50, because at the moment it’s 93 /7, not in a good way, you know. It’s not human, and I think that’s the other thing that I obviously talk about quite a lot in the book, which is the need for, you know, real decent human beings who are out as decent human beings as themselves running organizations, and admitting that they don’t know everything, that they’ve got vulnerabilities, quirks, because that’s what makes them human. And that’s what can make them empathize with others. And if there’s one thing that frankly, someone like Jacinda Ardern has got it is empathy and being human and Mary Bird is exactly the same, you know, she’s very human and she’s very empathetic.

Alison Jones: Yes. And perhaps hasn’t got quite the insecurity that seems to plague some of our world leaders as well, which is interesting isn’t it, there is a whole PhD thesis in there. I just want to talk about, I want to talk about you for a minute though, Rita, and your story because I was really fascinated by your own story and the way you’ve obviously put your background and where you are now and how that has fed into the imposter syndrome, but also I think probably given you the clarity to see it in a new way.

So if you could just talk us quickly through your own story. And also how you made that shift from talking about advertising, focusing in your writing on your business, to actually saying, I can use my writing to talk about this piece too.

Rita Clifton: Yes. Well, I mean, I don’t think my backstory is particularly unusual or I think everyone’s got interesting backstories  that maybe they find slightly strange, but the reason I use my backstory and I talk about it in the book is because as I say, if I’m going to be authentic in what I’m saying to other people, then I’m going to share some of mine.

And I think if nothing else, it gives you the story of, that saying ‘there’s nowt so queer as folk’, you know, and that’s just the case. I mean, I happened to, you know, my father was an invalid, for example. And, this obviously created a lot of strain on my mother who had mental health problems.

So, you know, there’s sort of some very sad elements in that backstory and very sad also that my father died when I was 12. And then of course you see lots of research that, highlights the fact that many people who lost a parent at quite a young age. Again, it gives them drive because they constantly want to be, you know, living up to whatever promise or, you know, whatever, legacy, the parent might’ve given you.

And certainly, you know, my father gave me a lot of confidence and I think that giving your children confidence is something, even though, very sadly, I lost him early, it did give me a sort of, a sense I think of possibility and confidence, even at a young age. But nevertheless, fortunately there was a teacher at school who believed in me because I never thought about going to university and none of the people in my family had been to university, but a deputy head at school said, I think you’ve got the ability and I’m going to help you.

And I managed to get into Cambridge and of course at Cambridge, you know imposter syndrome, oh my God. You know, these people are much smarter than I am. They’re members of clubs that I’m never going to be part of, and I’m not wearing the right shoes. I mean, you know, all those things, but of course, then you get into the workplace.

And what’s interesting about the workplace is that, I mean throughout my teens and leading up to university, I had to work every weekend and holidays and things like that for money, because we didn’t have any money, but what it enabled me to do and working in shops and factories and, offices and indeed even doing go-go dancing, can you believe, as part of a discotheque, I mean,  I did the lot and it’s obviously quite weird at the time, but actually it just made me really appreciate the many, many different lives that people can have and how to engage with people, a very, very wide range of people. And I found that a real advantage in some ways in doing the sort of jobs that I was interested in, jobs in media and in customer insights and understanding people and communicating with people.

And that’s, you know, I found that in advertising. So I was lucky to have got into advertising at a fantastic time.  It was a time for ambition for Britain and the world and so on and so forth. So that created real opportunities for me, it was eyeopening and it made me feel that so much was possible in my life and that you could help other people.

But I think the thing I found most of all in the jobs that I was doing, is the biggest kick I got was seeing other people become brilliant or be brilliant. And I loved recruiting people, spotting their talents, hopefully developing them and seeing them succeed. And I think, if I’ve got to any sort of any stage of my life, it was thinking I’ve learned lots of things over time, I’ve made lots of mistakes, I haven’t been good at taking my own advice, I’m driving in the rear view mirror and everything else. But I just got to a stage in life where I thoroughly enjoy the many different things that I do. But what I really want to do, if I possibly can, is make this big difference to helping a lot more women have the confidence to go for it and to have some expectation they’re going to end up running things. Because there was a one comment that someone who worked in my team who said several years ago, is that because I was running a department at the time, I had two children, and I seemed to be making a success of it, she said it never occurred to her that she couldn’t do it. And that made me want to cry, frankly. But it also made me feel, I want to share some of this stuff with other people and see if I can just help them by sharing some of my experiences and what I found worked and didn’t work.

Alison Jones: It’s amazing, isn’t it, just that power of visibility. It makes people know that there’s, that this is possible. This is a thing. And actually, if you get enough of it, it makes people assume that it’s the norm, rather than something unusual.

Rita Clifton: Exactly. And actually, one of the things, when I was talking to Mary Beard last week, she was saying that, for some people that she’d met, and particularly some guys in the academic world, you know, when they got to the top, it was almost as though some of them felt: I belong here.

 And I said that really sparked an insight from me, which is that I want so many more women to feel: I belong here. I belong here right at the top of organizations, not just being senior, not just giving advice and cajoling, you know, the end decision makers, but actually being in that decision-making role as the chief executive or the chairman or the director general or whatever, because even though, when I did the chief executive’s job, it didn’t make me very happy because it can sometimes be very stressful, you have to do things you don’t want to do, like making people redundant and these are difficult things. But what it did do was enable me to do what I thought was important, which was to be fair to people, to develop the right people. I had 50/50 men and women on my executive board.

You can make these things happen. And you are in the end the final arbiter and I think having more women in that position, mixing it with other people who are running things, this is what we need in the business world, in society, and of course the world more broadly.

Alison Jones: It’s interesting as well that you make that point about getting to a stage in your life and your work life, but also in your personal life where you have this mass of credibility, you don’t really have anything to prove. You’ve mastered your subject and so on, and you’re looking more broadly.

You go, well, actually, what is my legacy? You know, what do I really care about as well as the topic on which I am invited to speak. Were you aware of that sort of broadening and shifting in yourself as you approached this book?

Rita Clifton: Yes, I was, I mean, I think over the years, obviously I’ve tended… I’ve done my day job. I’ve had my nonprofit, I was going to say side hustle. There wasn’t really much hustling, but of course I’ve always had a real passion about the environment and sustainability from about the age of seven. And I’ve always kept a foot in the sustainability and green camp.

As you say, I was on the board of WWF. I’ve had a crush on Sir David Attenborough since you know, that very young age and so on. So I’ve always done

Alison Jones: We all have, we all have.

Rita Clifton: Haven’t we just. So I’ve done the day job. I’ve done the environment thing, but also on a regular basis, I’ve done speeches to young women or to undergrads or peers, and so on where, again, I’ve shared experiences. And a lot of the time those experiences, I didn’t share the slides, we didn’t record the sessions and things like that, because I thought, you know, that’s private, but I do think that, it was private and also I could share things that you wouldn’t necessarily want to tattoo on your forehead and have paraded, there’s an honesty and so on, but I do think you get to a certain age and stage where you think, do you know, I mind slightly less about what people think.

And frankly, this is the time to be honest about how things really are, as opposed to how you might want to try and present them to the outside world. And that’s, I think the stage, so I’ve always done, as I say, the day job, the sustainability thing and also I’ve always had this element of wanting to mentor or coach or help, particularly young women in their careers. Although I have also helped, I hope, young people more broadly. And there are moments where you think this is what I am meant to do here. And I really want to try and do as much of it as I can.

Alison Jones: And you’ve always written as well. That’s always been quite a strong strand for you. What does writing look like for you and do you enjoy it, what do you get out of it?

Rita Clifton: Well, look this is so interesting. And again, so ironic because again, when I was talking to Mary last week, we were laughing about the fact that I wasn’t exactly the ideal student because frankly my eyes were popping all over the place thinking, Oh my God, I want to do this and this and this. And maybe I wasn’t quite so dedicated to my studies as I might’ve been.

And of course I didn’t write, I mean, I wrote essays, but not very much , and then actually, I went through a sort of slightly strange personal period in my early twenties. I got married for the first time rather young and realized that it was too young, and then I went off to a Greek Island for six months and thought, Hmm, I going to write my novel, just like lots of people do, and of course ended up not writing a novel and hardly even writing a sort of short story. I think it ended up as a magazine article. So I wasn’t necessarily a writer, but over the years, I’ve just got to enjoy it more and more. Maybe I originally associated  it with essay writing and academic work, but you know, more recently I have so enjoyed it. It’s so satisfying and as soon as I learned to write as I speak, as opposed to the kind of flat third party language, that was when I really started to enjoy it. And yes, I’d written chapters for books, on the environment or brand strategy. And then I started writing books on, brand strategy too, and the future of brands and things like that.

And I’ll be quite honest. I mean, a lot of that writing, a lot of that passion came from me thinking, do you know, whether we like it or not you know, business runs the world. So the world needs changing, business runs the world, so we need to change business. And the way business connects with its audiences and its customers and so on is through its brand so therefore I got a real sort of energy on, actually, as far as applying the cause to my day job was concerned. Brands have got the power to change the world and they have, and you just need to make sure they behave well. When you’ve got that sense of cause and passion, then it does give you a lot of energy and it also gives you ideas for writing and speaking to people and so on. And so I do, I love writing now.

One of the wonderful ironies. I love writing. I love going away for long weekends or something to places with water flowing, I like going to, you know, I like being on rivers or places which have got, I guess, good feng shui. I know this sounds really weirdo weirdo, but we all have places don’t we, where we feel the flow coming and that’s sort of how I feel about writing.

Alison Jones: it’s a very literal metaphor. I love that.

Rita Clifton: I’m afraid it is, well it’s literal and everything else, but for some reason I’ve got this thing, it’s a little bit like sitting in a particular chair, where you feel you have creative thoughts and things like that .

Alison Jones: Running for me, actually, whenever, I just sort of take an idea that I can’t quite,  you know those idea that’s just itching at the back of your mind but you can’t quite see it yet, I take it on a run and that’s what helps me.

Rita Clifton: Interesting. Yes, no, I’m afraid I never really got into the running thing, but I do the shower thing, I get the shower thing. I get the sitting by water thing and also the dancing thing. I find dancing incredibly therapeutic, releases the soul. Anyway, we all have our things don’t we.

Alison Jones: Absolutely. And they’re all different forms of flow, if you think about it really. That’s wonderful. But of course, writing and imposter syndrome are quite close bedfellows as well, aren’t they?

Rita Clifton: Well, they are, because of course you will start with thinking, what have I got to say here? And then you start with lots of blank pieces of paper and all that kind of stuff. And what I found a real breakthrough and particularly in the latest book, is actually mapping out the book on a wall, which people have mentioned to me before. And I didn’t, I scribbled a lot of notes. I mean, I’ve always, because I’ve been a strategist throughout my career, as well as CEO, I love getting a load of information, load of research and insights and piles of books and things like that.

And I like having them all around me and kind of distilling that into thoughts and ideas, and trying to make the complex simple, all those sort of things. But I think in writing the book, what I found really, really helpful this time was actually to plaster a side of a wall with the overall idea, the overall angle, which clearly you need to have a passion for in some way, shape or form. And then to map out almost like a presentation, how the book could emerge and then start to populate it with notes and quotes and things that you might have thought over time in the shower or out running and so on.

And then you end up with literally with a wall of content. And then after that, when you’ve got that up there, you’ve got to apply the seat of your pants to the chair, and look at whatever you need to look at, whether it’s water or a desk or tea or a brick wall or whatever, and just start bloody well writing.

Alison Jones: There’s no substitute for that bit. And sadly, because there’s a lovely energy as you say about creating a wall, but then you’ve got to convert it into words on the page, which is always a shame.

Rita Clifton: I know, but very, very, very fulfilling actually, in particular when you get to hold the book at the end. I mean, I know a lot of us are doing eBooks and things like that now, but when you get to hold the book at the end, it sort of feels, it feels real. And again, feels like something that could be a legacy, hopefully in a good way

Alison Jones: Smells so good as well, doesn’t it? I do love the new book smell.

So if you were to give one tip to a first timer,     somebody who’s listening and hasn’t perhaps, you know, broken through yet, they’ve got their idea, but they’re still in the early stages. What would be your best tip be for somebody in that position?

Rita Clifton: Hmm. Well, I think first and foremost, you’ve got to feel a real rush of energy, if not passion, when you are thinking about the idea, you know, you really have got to feel, you’ve got something to say and you got to have a feeling of I want to get this out there, I want to sort of take it more broadly to the world.

So I think that’s somewhat, if you don’t feel that and if you don’t feel engaged yourself about it, then it’s going to be very difficult to engage and inspire other people. So, I think that’s absolutely number one. And then number two, having got that, I think then mapping things out in the way that I’ve described. Writing the introduction is always a good idea, because all of the argument of the book and the thesis of the book and everything else, you sort of need to make sure you’re setting it up right up front. One of the best pieces of advice actually I got from my absolutely fantastic agent, Caroline Michelle, when I shared some of the early bits of the writing, she suggested write the last chapter. Write the last chapter as well, because actually that will help you really, really nail where you’re going with this. And I thought that was great advice too.

Alison Jones: That is great advice. That’s the takeaway for the reader as much as anything.

Rita Clifton: Yes, it is. And, you know, being realistic, are people going to read every single word of your book? I mean, obviously that would be lovely if they did, because you’ve agonized over all those blasted words and things, but I think that giving people some clear takeaways and signposts and things like that is very important particularly in a business book where people might read it in sections or bits and pieces or skim from time to time or use it. So you’ve got to kind of really make sure that you are laying out the points in a way that is most helpful and ideally, most memorable.

Alison Jones: Yes. And also it actually forces you to think about the reader and what they’re getting from it. I’m just thinking about Amazon who force everybody who comes up with an idea to write the sales page for it, which is absolutely brilliant.

Rita Clifton: I think it’s terrific. And in fact actually I often advise people, if they’re going to go for new jobs, if they’re going to apply for new jobs and really sort of test whether or not they want to do it. I say, write the press release, write the notional press release of what it would say about why you were doing this job and what your quote would be about why you’re doing it and feel your energy and feel the sense of kind of, you know, ambition and cause et cetera, attached to it. It is a great, great barometer.

Alison Jones: Yes, really powerful. Thank you. Now I always ask guests, Rita, for a recommendation. Is there a business book that you think everybody listening should read?

Rita Clifton: Oh, do you know, it’s so funny. I think that I’d like to say all sorts of learned, learned books by academics and things like that. I still think that one of the most influential business books I have read was Built to Last. Built to Last, and the reason why it was so powerful is because I guess it really highlighted and substantiated for me why it is and how it is that organizations that  have got a really strong purpose, a really strong ideology, really managed to triumph over those other more anonymous  organizations and also highlighted the sort of leaders that tended to succeed in those organizations. So, I mean, this is a business book that was written way before we all suddenly started getting obsessed again by purpose. I mean, it was as though purpose was a new idea, you know.

Alison Jones: Jim Collins was there before anybody, wasn’t he?

Rita Clifton: Jim Collins was absolutely there. And it is only more recently that people have sort of wrapped it up in the sort of Simon Sinek sort of style and by the way, I think that’s a terrific book as well, but it was already, you know, it was already a big thing as you say, by Jim Collins and the examples there and the data and the research and the models and things like that, I think.

You know, that was a very, very influential book for me. Funnily enough actually when I was talking to my husband this morning and I said, which book would you say? He talked about the Felix Dennis book about being an entrepreneur and, there’s obviously quite a lot of swear words and things in that book too, you know, the late great Felix Dennis. He doesn’t really reflect my views about things, but it was a very, very powerful book if you are going to be an entrepreneur, because of course it highlights why he could never work with anybody else and why he couldn’t understand why anyone else wouldn’t want to have their own company, rather than working for other people. That was not me. I wanted security. I wanted job security. I wanted people around me. I wanted resources, and all that support. Where as some people are born to be entrepreneurs and if they are, they should read that definitely read that Felix Dennis book.

Alison Jones: I’ve not read that actually

Rita Clifton: Oh, haven’t you? yes. I think  it’s a really interesting book again about being an entrepreneur. What’s interesting actually about Felix Dennis is that of course  later in life, he became a very passionate environmentalist and arranged for forest to be planted and things like that.

So he was an interesting sort of collision of beliefs and characteristics and things like that. Fascinating guy.

Alison Jones: Now when you say the Felix Dennis book,  I’ve just done a quick Google here, are we talking about How to Get Rich, How to Make Money?

Rita Clifton: Yes, exactly How to Get Rich. So if that’s what turns you on, I don’t know about you. I’ve always thought I just want enough money to be able to, you know, feed my children, have some decent clothes, go on the occasional nice holiday. Whereas some people actually are motivated in great part by money .

Alison Jones: So funny, isn’t it? Yes. I’d look at a book called How to Get Rich, and think, well, no, I don’t, there’s nothing about that that appeals to me at all, which probably says a lot about my inner imposter as well.

Rita Clifton: Well, we’re all different. I think that’s the killer insight, isn’t it? We’re all different. And thank God for that. We just need to make sure we get that difference at the right level and at the right leadership of organizations

Alison Jones: Absolutely, yes. I think probably should read this book.

Thank you so much Rita. It’s such a pleasure talking to you. If people want to find out more about you, more about Love Your Imposter, and in fact, all your other writings on advertising as well, where should they go?

Rita Clifton: Well, go to my website, where you can preorder the book and also I think the books I’ve written before, the eCommerce book on brands and branding and the future of brands, you know, it is still possible to get hold of these . I’m on LinkedIn and Twitter and things like that. So, I look forward to connecting with people.

Alison Jones: Brilliant. And I shall put all those links up on the show notes obviously at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com along with the transcript for this, which you’ll probably going to want to go back and read a few times, because we’ve covered so much ground today. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you, thank you so much for your time Rita.

Rita Clifton: And thank you as well. I really enjoyed it.

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