Episode 259 – Just doing it with Drew Ellis

Drew Ellis‘If you can just get over the fear of failure and treat failure as a learning process, then… you’re going to go on to do some great stuff.’

From designing the iconic ‘Choose Life’ t-shirts of the 1980s to launching one of the first lockdown festivals of 2020, Drew Ellis has been living by this mantra for years now.

One result of his experimentation is Like Minds, a global thought leadership and events company, and in this conversation we explore how it happened, why events and books are such a perfect partnership, and the future of audio (particularly Drew’s plans for Clubhouse).

And if you’re playing small, there’s a challenge here for you: be seen. There are so many options that there are no excuses any more.


Like Minds site: https://wearelikeminds.com/

Business Breakfast TV: http://businessbreakfast.tv

Like Minds on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WeAreLikeMinds

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

The Extraordinary Business Book Club bookshop: https://uk.bookshop.org/shop/extraordinarybusinessbooks

Alison Jones:  I’m here today with Drew Ellis, who is a serial entrepreneur and angel investor. He founded Design Agency Icon in 1983, which he sold to AGI Media, and Eyetoeye, one of the first digital agencies in the UK in 1994. He advises startups and digital agencies on business development, and is an evaluated consultant for FinPro, the export arm of the Embassy of Finland. He is the co-founder of the Like-minds Ideas Festival, a global thought leadership platform, holding events in London, Exeter, Helsinki and New York and the home of Business Breakfast TV, a weekly online show for entrepreneurs and SME business owners. So welcome to the show Drew

Drew Ellis: Lovely to be here.

Alison Jones: It’s quite the CV, isn’t it.

Drew Ellis: Yeah. It is yes, as my father would say, when are you going to get a proper job.

Alison Jones: Well, we’re millennials innit, or something. No, it’s really… apparently, actually I should have put it in the biography as well, you designed the Choose Life t-shirts, which I loved in the eighties. So thank you for that.

Drew Ellis: I did indeed. Well, my pleasure. It was so exciting to see it taken up by so many people and really in turn, not only to thank Katharine obviously for commissioning me, but thank George Michael and Wham and Frankie Goes to Hollywood and all those artists that took up the banner and wore them and then adapted them to their own needs.

Alison Jones: So before we start anything, I’m actually going to have to ask you, where did that all come from? What was the inspiration for that?

Drew Ellis: It was really during the Falklands War when The Sun would publish these headlines. And I remember one in particular that just said Gotcha in great, big, bold black capitals.

Alison Jones: 1982 wasn’t it. I remember that.

Drew Ellis:  The sinking of the Belgrano. The brief from Katharine was that she wanted something that would really stand out. And I just thought these iconic, bold fonts were the way to go. And also John Lennon had done a whole series of posters when he was doing his bed ins with Yoko Ono, but they had again, a very similar stark, striking, bold sort of look to them. So I just started to experiment with those and it worked, Katharine loved them and they just got picked up because they, I think possibly, you know, they were just very simple, very striking images.

Alison Jones: Brilliant. So, so interesting to hear the story behind something that was a complete cultural icon in the 1980s.

Drew Ellis: One great story was I got a call from Katharine one morning and she said I need another t-shirt designed and I said, Okay, what do you want it to say? She said, I want it to say 58% don’t want Pershing. Okay.  When do you need that by? She said, Well, I need it in a couple of hours because I’ve got to go to Number 10 to meet Margaret Thatcher and I want to wear it.

And I said, Wow. Okay. How on earth are you going to get it printed in time? She said, I have no idea because obviously t-shirts are silkscreen printed and there wasn’t enough time to go through the whole production process. So I said, look let me have a think about it and I put the phone down.

And I remembered that at the time photographers sometimes would print their pictures, landscape pictures, onto what looked like canvas. And there was a shop down the road from me in Farringdon called Process Supplies, who stocked these sort of canvas coated with photographic emulsion in boxes of 20 by 16.

So I ran down the road and bought a box and ran back and literally letrasetted the type onto a bit of acetate and put it into an enlarger, a photographic enlarger, and projected the image onto this 20 by 16 bit of photographic canvas and developed it in a tray like you would develop a black and white photo, and put it on a bike round to Katharine’s studio. And of course they’ve got seamstresses there and they seam-stitched it onto a t-shirt dress. And she flung it on, got in the cab, went to Number 10 and then of course, opened her coat as Thatcher proffered her hand to shake her hand. And it was on the front cover of every newspaper, pretty much in the country, if not around the world.

So that was another iconic moment for me. Yeah.

Alison Jones: And so resourceful as well. I mean, and you forget this was in the days when you couldn’t just sort of source anything immediately and digitally.

Drew Ellis: You know, we had to do it with letraset because to get it typeset would have taken too long and there were no computers in the studio at the time yet today you just do it in five minutes.

Alison Jones: Yeah. And I still remember the old hacks, you know, cutting things up and cow gumming things down and.

Drew Ellis: Yeah. I remember that well, the smell of cow gum.

Alison Jones: Oh, yeah, it’s evocative, isn’t it. But let’s bring ourselves more up to date and talk about Like Minds, because it’s such a fascinating concept. It’s that lovely synergy of kind of experience and talk and reading and thought, you know, just every way that you can experience it. So what inspired you to establish that and what do you hope for, from it?

Drew Ellis: okay. So I think it’s a bit of a long story really, but it initially came out of Twitter. I recently moved to Devon with my family and I had been hearing about Twitter for about a year and I was watching Stephen Fry on one of his documentaries on the TV.

Alison Jones: Twitter advocate.

Drew Ellis: Yeah. And I thought I’d never been on Stephen Fry’s website. So while I’m watching the TV, I’m doing that dual screen thing. And I went on his website and the first thing it said was follow me on Twitter. And I thought, okay, I’ve got to get a Twitter account. So I got myself a Twitter account. And of course the first thing that happened was my stream was just full of Stephen Fry’s tweets because I wasn’t following anybody else. 

The first tweet that I saw was a photograph of him with, I think, sort of, you know, one of the smallest frogs in the world on his thumb and I thought, Oh, that’s a cute picture now, what are you supposed to do with this Twitter thing? Oh, you’re supposed to reply aren’t you so I just replied and I said,  something fairly innocuous, like, wow, that’s really cool. I love your frog. Yeah, exactly. And he messaged me back and I just sat back and I just thought, wow. Stephen Fry’s just spoken to me. I would never be able to speak to Stephen Fry. Normally I’d have to go through, you know,  assistants or a PAs VA’s whatever. And it was one of those moments where I thought when the internet came along and that was my industrial revolution, if you like. I didn’t think I would witness another revolution in my lifetime as impactful. And here we were with social media and Twitter.

So the next thing that happened to me was I got a message from somebody saying, Oh, you’ve got an interesting bio on your Twitter account. Can we meet for a coffee in Exeter? And I met up with this young guy, Scott Gould, and he said I’m thinking of doing a Tweetup in a pub. And I said, well, Tweetups are a bit sort of passé. You know, I go to London every week. Tweetups were something that everybody was interested in kind of six months ago. Why don’t we, if you want to do a talk, why don’t we find a speaker and hire a room in a pub and give it some focus, you know? So he said, yeah, that’s a great idea. Let’s do that. I’ll find a speaker. So let’s have another coffee in a couple of weeks.

So when we re-met, he said, I found two speakers and I said, well, okay, this is a bit more than just 20 minutes in a pub you know, we probably need to hire a bigger platform, a bigger room and he says, yes, because you know they are flying in from the US. I said, hang on a minute. Who are these people? And, you know, who’s paying? And he said, well, they’re experts in social media, you know? And that’s where social media started in the US, we need to get these people over to tell us more about it. I said, okay. If we’re going to do that, then we need to find some sponsorship because you know, we’re not going to sell, at £25 a ticket, we’re not going to sell enough tickets to afford two flights and two hotel rooms, you know? So we both went off. We found some money from some of local sponsors. I found another couple of speakers from London, a couple of people that I again found on Twitter, who worked at the BBC and Sky TV who were also really some of the early adopters of social media.

 And we put on a half a day event in a venue in Exeter and 220 people turned up and we couldn’t believe it. You know all we’d done was put it out on Twitter because we thought we’ve got to talk about Twitter. We might as well just advertise it on Twitter. You know, we had no database and so it was a huge success and everybody had a great time and we live streamed it which again was very prescient because a lot of people were doing that at the time…

Alison Jones:  What year are we talking about here?

Drew Ellis: 2009.

Alison Jones: Wow. Okay.

Drew Ellis: We did this in October, 2009. And so we did it again really quickly. I think it was February the following year, 2010. And we did a whole day and we started to curate these speakers who had something really interesting to say and continued to live stream and continued to live tweet it as well.

You know in those days, we’d have a Twitter wall, which we eventually took down because we had a rather embarrassing moment where we had an American porn star chiming in on the stage…

Alison Jones: Jumping on your hashtag.

Drew Ellis: …which was… jumping on the hashtag, which didn’t go down too well with the speaker because everyone stopped listening to the speaker and they were laughing about what the porn star had to say. And he was very good about it. You know, I direct messaged him and said, listen, you know, I appreciate the industry you’re in and all that sort of stuff, but we’re a business platform, please, please don’t jump on the Twitter stream. And he said, Oh, that’s fine. It’s cool, man.

So we got rid of him, but there have been some fantastic moments, you know, again, going back to Stephen Fry, I remember him popping up on the tweet stream saying Hello Like Minds which was a really nice sort of circular thing for me as he was basically the person that got me on there in the first place.

Anyway, for, you know, the last 11 years we’ve been running an annual ideas festival in Exeter which attracts entrepreneurs and business leaders. And we curate speakers from all over the world to come and talk to us across a wide range of topics. And then we began doing a series of business breakfasts in London.

I got a few inquiries from some private members places in London who wanted us to put on a quick sort of 15-minute talk from somebody influential and then a Q&A in the hopes of showcasing their venue. So it took off from that.

Alison Jones:  And it’s lovely that it started at a pub, don’t all the best ideas, just in pub two people going Oh we should do that

Yeah It’s this lovely, organic emergent feel.  It’s very exciting. I’m guessing events this past few year have been a bit different to usual. So how did impact you?

Drew Ellis: Yeah. Well, because I started one of the first digital agencies in 1994, I’ve always been online. And so as soon as the pandemic hit, I knew that I was going to have to take all these events online, but I didn’t have a platform. So I spent the first sort of latter part of March researching all the platforms that are out there.

And there weren’t very many and I settled on one called HopIn. And I was very lucky that I did that because it became incredibly popular. At one point, I think they had 18,000 people trying to get on the platform. And so I was became a fairly early adopter. And was able to start producing events online using that technology.

And so we did a lockdown festival. which I sort of laughingly called The Lockdown Festival in April and got a great sponsor, Amaze, who are a financial services business. And repeated it again in May. And we got 600 people I think, from around the world which was really exciting because when you run an in-person event, usually obviously you’re going to attract people from your local market or, you know, certainly nationally.

But we had people coming in from Tokyo, from Mumbai, from Alaska and bringing in, you know, again, different thoughts, different perspectives, different comments, which was just incredibly valuable to everybody. So yeah.

Alison Jones: It really strikes me as well the importance of timing here, you know, in all the stuff we talked about, really it’s the fact that you were an early adopter. The fact that you did this before people got bored of it, because by July we were all pretty sick of events, you know, there was lot of them going on, but there’s something about the agility and the courage to just say, this is what’s happening and I’m going to just do it and see what happens. That’s really interesting.

Drew Ellis: Yeah. I mean, I’m a huge believer in just do it, as Nike would say, you know, and if it doesn’t work fine, try something else, you know, don’t be too scared to try things as long as they’re not going to cost you too much financially. Then why not? You know, we all fall on our face at some point in our careers and I’ve probably fallen on my face more times than many but it’s all part of the learning process. And yeah, if you can just get over the fear of failure and treat failure as a learning process, then I think, you know, you’re going to go on to do some great stuff.

Alison Jones: Yes, that’s really a quote to live by. Isn’t it? Well, what do you see emerging in the future? I mean, obviously you were right there at the beginning with online events the month after lockdown started, but how do you see it going forward into 2021 and beyond? Because we can’t, un-know what we now know about what you were saying about, you know, the diversity, that the fact that you can get people from all over the place.

There’s so much great stuff about online events. Isn’t there, but we don’t want to lose the experiential stuff too.

Drew Ellis: No, absolutely. And I think, you know, we will come out of this as they did in 1918 you know, better, stronger, more powerful. What was it that Warren Buffet once said? It’s only when the tide goes out we see who’s swimming naked.

I love that quote. And, you know, we are going to see a lot of businesses disappear, but they’re the weaker, it’s sort of it’s survival of the fittest, you know. So I don’t think online is going away anytime soon, we will end up in a, I hate to use the word hybrid.

I think that sort of feels like one part of it isn’t as good as the other part. I’d like to think of it more as an enhanced event. So when you are there in person, you know that there are screens around the room or around the festival, that are bringing in people from another part of the world and that you can stand in front of that screen and potentially have a conversation with them and that makes it even more exciting.

Alison Jones: Yes, that’s a very exciting vision, isn’t it. Love that. And what about books Drew? Where do books fit in here? Do they, do they have a place?

Drew Ellis: Absolutely.

Alison Jones: I’m so glad you said that.

Drew Ellis: I do love books. I’ve got far too many of them and I have to have a clear out every so often. Books, I keep hearing the phrase books are the new business card, and I think that’s becoming more and more true, that if you are a business leader and you haven’t written a book you’re seen as someone who perhaps isn’t as expert as perhaps someone who has written a book. Not only have they taken the time to do that and share their knowledge and share their learning, but it’s a great way to expand your community and your personal brand.

So I’m a big advocate of books,

Alison Jones: And I know that you’ve got plans for a books section on the Like Minds site. I don’t know how much you’ve… I mean, obviously, you know, don’t tell us anything you’ll have to kill us if you tell us, but you know, what are you thinking about that? And how does that sort of fit with your vision of showcasing ideas and connecting people?

Drew Ellis: So really there are two parts to it. One is books that I’d enjoy personally, obviously. But also to put the books on the site from speakers that we featured particularly in our business breakfast TV series because that’s joined up then, isn’t it. You know, and if we’ve got somebody who’s taken the time and trouble to come and talk to us for 15- 20 minutes or so about their book, we also want to be able to help promote that and help them sell more of that book. So we’ll have a section on the site that basically links directly from the speakers that we’ve invited to talk.

Alison Jones: Yes. And as a publisher of course I’m all over that. That’s brilliant.

What do you think is the dynamic between speaking… So you’ve got an author who’s also a speaker. And when they’re speaking, obviously it’s in real time and they have a fairly short, concentrated period of time to communicate a message to you.

And then you, if you like what they’re saying, you take the book away with you. It always strikes me that there’s a really interesting dialogue between those two, that there’s a kind of a different quality of attention that you bring to the two. Is this something that you think about on the site and how speaking and writing work together?

Drew Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. Because when we do the business breakfast show, we ask the authors to prerecord, two reasons for that one is in case the internet goes down, which can happen. But primarily because it provides a long tail piece of content for both them, us and for the people that were at the event.

They quite like to replay that, you know, if you’re in an in-person event and you’ve listened to an absolutely fantastic talk and you might’ve been taking notes, I’m sure that you’d actually quite like to go back and hear that again. So we prerecord it, it goes up on our site, obviously up on our YouTube channel, but for the show itself, it means that there’s an opportunity for a Q&A afterwards. So the speakers given some of the insights that are in the book in the talk. And now we can debate them after the talk. So I think that’s a really key part, it’s the engagement, which again, of course is what social media is all about.

Alison Jones: Yes. So it’s what books very much aren’t about because the book is a kind of, it’s a one way monologue, so you get a deep dive and then having the opportunity to talk to the author. I love the way these all layer and complement each other. They’re different ways of engaging and exploring and expanding ideas. And I think bringing them all together on your platform, it’s really smart. I like it a lot. Great model.

Drew Ellis: I mean, the next stage for us, we were talking earlier about the Clubhouse, the new, yeah…

Alison Jones: We’re going to talk about audio actually, because you’ve got a podcast as well. And, but yes, let’s talk about Clubhouse. And just the importance of audio. Go, go.

Drew Ellis: Well, so we’re also planning a podcast series because obviously for us to strip out the audio from the talk is relatively simple. And rather than the podcast being an interview style, like we’re doing now, it would be more of a broadcast thing to listen to on their walk or whether exercising, whatever.

But audio is an incredibly powerful medium, because it, as I said, it allows you to get on with other things if you’re good at multitasking, you can know it’s just like

Alison Jones: I was confessing. I can’t do it. I can’t listen to audio while I do anything else that involves words.  I can listen to audio while I cook, shower, run, all those things, I can’t work with it in the background.

Drew Ellis: You can’t if you need to focus on something. So we will, well, we have done one event on Clubhouse already, and I’m looking to run a whole series. Again, because you can invite people up onto the audio stage, for want of a better description, and have a genuine conversation, a genuine debate, and people are incredibly well-mannered on the platform from the relatively recent experience that I’ve had. You know, you’re not going to see trolls because these people are keyboard warriors. They like hiding behind the screen and hiding behind their keyboard. If you’re taking part in an audio conversation, there’s nowhere to hide and people will very soon put you in your place or remove you.

And then I have heard…

Alison Jones: So interesting. Yes.

Drew Ellis: …instances where someone has set up a room and they’ve been talking about some, say, dubious content, or, you know, setting up a room for a heated debate. They’ve been removed from the platform, but not only have they been removed from the platform, the person who recommended them to the platform has been removed.

Alison Jones: So they are policing it quite heavily, which so interesting in the context of, you know we’re talking shortly after Donald Trump has been removed from Twitter and banned from Facebook. And there’s this huge debate about the responsibility of the platform for the content on it.

And it’s interesting because Twitter in the early days and I joined in 2008, it was a lovely place. It were all fields, you know: I think Clubhouse might be having slightly that golden sort of start where everybody on it is genuinely there with good intentions. I don’t know how you manage that as a platform grows

Drew Ellis:  You’re the curator, you know, so it’s up to you to decide who you want involved in your event or  your room. And the same would go for me if I’m running an event and I’ve got somebody on the stage, who’s, you know, not behaving appropriately, they’re going to be asked to leave,

Alison Jones: You pull the mic.

Drew Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. So platforms where there’s self-moderation I think is a good thing. I think possibly where you’ve got platforms who are arbitrarily removing people, and I’m not saying for an instant that the US president didn’t deserve to be removed, but it’s a different issue if you are looking at freedom of speech.

Alison Jones: Yes. We’ve all got a slight queasiness about it even, no matter how much we think… Yes. Really interesting.

I’m going to ask you about writing as well, Drew. I mean, and particularly from the perspective of somebody who invites authors to speak about their stuff, if somebody wants to write a book that maximizes their usefulness to someone like you, do you have any tips for them?

Drew Ellis: People love hearing people’s journeys, it’s a rather overused phrase in The X Factor sort of scenario, but it’s very true. People are fascinated by people and people are fascinated to hear how they got to where they got to or how they did what they did. And that’s what I really want to try and get out of the speakers that I ask to come and be a part of the platform.

I remember inviting Luke Johnson to speak very early on, back in the late sort of 20… early, 2010s. And he stood up and he said, Yes, so I basically, you know, I used to run night clubs when I was at university. And then I bought Pizza Express and what we did was, and I wanted to go ‘Woah well, not so much go back to the night clubs, but then the phrase ‘then I bought Pizza Express’ is not enough of your journey. How do you do that? How’d you buy Pizza Express?’ Okay. We understand once you’ve bought it, how you might grow it, that’s kind of, you know, a process, isn’t it, you have a framework where you work with people who understand how pizza joints work, but how did you actually get yourself in a position to buy that company? That’s those real little nuggets of insights of where we want to to get the detail.

Alison Jones: That’s such an interesting tip and I totally get, and it completely works when you’re talking. I think that I would add a caveat I think when you’re writing in that if somebody is reading your book, because you’re going to solve a problem for them, they haven’t got the same investment in you in a person as if they’re sitting in a room listening to you.

So by all means, use your story and, you know, be authentic and share it. But I think when you’re writing as well, you have to be quite careful that you don’t lead with well, and then I did this and this, because they don’t know who you are.  It’s what’s in it for them, isn’t it. So it’s a delicate balance, that one.

Drew Ellis: But it’s a part of the whole mix of where we are now, you know, 20, 30 years ago you wrote a book and you might get on the radio if you were lucky, you know, if you were a personality, a celebrity, but if you wrote a business book it was quite hard to get any traction anywhere, to be invited onto, you know, radio or TV to promote it unless your business was, you know, Tesla or some equivalent.

Whereas now you’ve got the opportunity to be on a podcast, even do your own YouTube channel, to put out content, you’ve got LinkedIn, you’ve got all these different platforms where you can share your content to help your book or help introduce people to your book so that they get a little bit more of your personality across through your voice or what you look like, how you’re dressed.

Alison Jones: Yes. And you’ve got to own that. You’ve got to just be yourself haven’t you on all those platforms

Drew Ellis: You do, yeah. And you have to be on all those platforms. You know, somebody said to me earlier today, they always say writing the book is the easy bit, the hard bit is the bit that follows.

Alison Jones: Yeah. That’s so true. You finish writing the book you think Oh, thank goodness. That’s done. It’s not Ha, hollow laugh. Yeah.

You must have read an awful lot of books, so I’m very interested in the next question and the answer to the next question, which is, would you like to recommend one for us?

Drew Ellis: Crikey It’s like asking me what’s my favorite band. Or my favorite child. Yeah. No, let’s not go there, as I have two.  Right, so I read, well actually I was at an event and heard Eric Schmidt from Google, talk about this book which he had written with a couple of other guys who were also at Google at various points and it’s called Trillion Dollar Coach.

And what’s interesting about it is although it’s written by  these three people. It’s not about them, particularly. It’s about a guy called Bill Cunningham who was coach to Eric Schmidt, Jeff Bezos. I think it was Jeff Bezos and certainly Steve Jobs hence the Trillion Dollar Coach, cause he was coaching all of these people, I think at the same time. Eric said in his talk that he asked Bill how much he wanted to get paid  to be his coach. And he said, I don’t want to get paid anything. He said, look, if you pay me, I’m now sort of slightly subservient to you I’m a supplier. So he said, okay, well, do you want shares? He said, no, no, no, no. I don’t want shares either, I want you to feel that I am your equal in this relationship.

And he said, actually, there’s one thing I would like. And Eric said, what’s that? And he said, I would like a car park space outside the front door. And Eric said, well, funnily enough, that’s the only thing I can’t give you. No one gets a car parking space outside the front door. Not even me, you know, we’re a very flat sort of take a very flat approach to this.

He said, can I ask you why. And he said, well, because as soon as I finished coaching you, I need to get over to Apple, to coach Steve. And I don’t want to waste any time trying to, you know, go to the far reaches of the Google car park to get my car out. So anyway, yeah, funny story, but it’s an amazing book, absolutely amazing book.

And some of the stories that he shares are absolutely fascinating. And you know, one of them was when he took issue with one of his employees and Bill said to him, took him aside and in his coaching session, he said, you know, you took issue with that guy in that meeting the other day. He said, you shouldn’t have done that.

And Eric said, why not? You know,  he messed up and he said, yeah, but he’s a really integral part of your team. He’s really good at what he does. Look what he did on Tuesday. And Eric said, Oh yeah, that was amazing. He said, so why didn’t you say to him that was amazing. Thank you so much for doing that, by the way, you know, the thing that happened on Friday perhaps you could sort of think about that again, as that wasn’t such a great thing and it totally changes the reaction of the recipient of that news, you know, instead of getting told off for doing something wrong, he was praised. And then there was a little slight telling off at the end.

So more receptive. But then I was talking to a business leader about business and leadership coach about this story. And she said, actually, she wouldn’t even do that. She would say, Praise him for the thing that they got right. And then say to them, what is it that you’ve learned that you could have done better this week?

Alison Jones: Questions are so powerful, aren’t they? Yeah. How interesting,  that’s a great recommendation. Thank you. And I hadn’t heard, I mean, I’ve heard of it, but I haven’t read it so I to put that on my pile. Thank you. That’s absolutely brilliant.

And if people want to find out more about you Drew, more about Like Minds, where should they go?

Drew Ellis: Go to wearelikeminds.com or go to businessbreakfast.tv, and you can see, we run the shows every Wednesday from eight in the morning, GMT and if you would like to take part, drop me a message on Instagram, on @drewellis or on Twitter, on @drewellis or @wearelikeminds on both of those platforms.

Alison Jones: And I will put all those links up on the show notes  at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com as usual, along with the transcript of the conversation.  We’ve overrun , I could talk to you all day, there’s so much more we could talk about in terms of books and events, but we’re going to stop there.

Thank you so much for your time Drew, great to talk to you today.

Drew Ellis: My pleasure, Alison, thanks very much for having me on.

 

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