Episode 328 – Buy This, Not That with Sam Dogen

Sam Dogen‘If you stay consistent, you grow your brand, you grow your message. I think sooner or later, something good will happen and you won’t be able to anticipate what it is.’

What story about money do you buy into? Sam Dogen, aka The Financial Samurai, wants you to rethink financial freedom, and he’s used writing as the way to enable his own extraordinary life-after-work. 

Think you’re too busy to write? Don’t listen to this if you want to be able to keep telling yourself that… 

AUDIO:

VIDEO

Sam’s site: https://www.financialsamurai.com/

Sam on Twitter: https://twitter.com/financialsamura

Alison on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bookstothesky

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Alison Jones: I’m here today with Sam Dogen, AKA The Financial Samurai, who retired from his career at Goldman Sachs and Credit Suisse age 34, but came out of retirement a year later because early retirement life was too boring and he founded the personal finance blog, Financial Samurai in 2009.

And his new book is called Buy This, Not That: How to spend your way to wealth and freedom, and is all about helping other people find financial freedom.

So firstly, welcome to the show. It’s a great bio, isn’t it? I retired at 34 and then came back into life because it was too dull.

Sam Dogen: Well, nice to speak to you. And thanks for having me here.

Alison Jones: Oh, it’s great to have you here. It would be really nice actually Sam, just to have a little bit more detail, because your early life is really fascinating and really challenging. So could you give us the kind of 30 second overview of sort of where you came from and where you landed?

Sam Dogen: Sure, I grew up to US foreign service parents, lived abroad for 13 years, came to high school and college in America, worked in finance for 13 years from 1999 to 2012 and then decided I just had enough. Couldn’t take this anymore. 60 plus hours a week. I felt like there was more to life. I originally wanted to work until 40 and then get out, but I was able to negotiate a severance that paid for about five to six years of living expenses.

So I said, you know what? That is kind of like leaving at 40 because you know, of all those living expenses. So I said, let me go take a leap of faith. Take a break, focus on my writing on Financial Samurai and see where life takes me.

Alison Jones: And Financial Samurai obviously started in 2009, which is, you know, a good early time for a blog. What drove that? Because at the time you were working in a, as you say, 60 hour week job, I mean there wasn’t much time left over for that. So that would’ve have been a real decision.

Sam Dogen: Well, the funny thing was so I just worked 70, 80 hours a week in the sense that from 2003 to 2006, I was going to school, business school part-time at Berkeley. And so that required 20 hours a week for three years. And then I had to go to school, you know, class, it was like eight hours every Saturday.

So once that was finished, I thought, well, you know I thought it’d be cool to do something entrepreneurial because in San Francisco, the ethos, the culture here is to start something on your own

Alison Jones: Everybody’s got the hustle.

Sam Dogen: Yes and that’s just the way it is here in San Francisco. So I said, well, let me start it.

But then in 2006, when I graduated from business school, part-time I said, I’m too busy. I had an excuse, I’m too busy. I need to use my education to work because at the end of the day, my firm paid for my employment, right. So I wanted to be, I wanted to honour them. But in 2009, it was the financial crisis. So everything was going to hell, my net worth got crushed by 35% in a matter of six months.

And so I said, you know what, maybe it’s time to start and no longer delay. So that’s when I started Financial Samurai.

Alison Jones: And what were you hoping for when you started it?

Sam Dogen: I started it because it was a cathartic way to overcome the trauma of losing so much money and seeing so many of my friends get let go. We were going through three to five rounds of layoffs for multiple years and it was just kind of a traumatic time and writing was my catharsis.

You know, I was able to try to make sense of the chaos, to connect with other people who were also afraid and try to figure out what should we do during times of crisis? It’s similar to now actually, but obviously, you know, 10 years later, our financial situation is different.

Alison Jones: And it’s interesting, you make that point in the book, don’t you? And I’ve never thought of it this way, you talk about financial independence being partly defensive, hello financial crisis, hello, pandemic, you know, and having that kind of resilience, that buffer against the kind of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and all that.

But you also talk about how it allows you to play offensively, to start the hustle, to take the risks, to do the interesting things. I thought that was really interesting.

Sam Dogen: Yes. I mean, I think our default setting should be to save, should be to budget, but you can only save and budget so much. It’s really hard to save your way to financial independence. You really need to go for the offense where you try to make more money through your day job, through your side hustle, through your entrepreneurial activities.

And so that was my thought process. And I wanted to, you know, if I was going to leave a healthy paying job in finance, I needed to find something to do. I didn’t retire from something, I wanted to retire to something. And for me it was really, it was just so fun.

I would wake up at 6:00 AM to write, I would get home, have dinner. I would write after 9:00 PM to maybe to midnight, it was just so much fun. And so I knew after about a year or two, I was like, oh, this could be something I could do after a career in banking.

Alison Jones: And actually six o’clock in the morning, that was a lie in for you, wasn’t it? Cause in the Goldman Sachs days, it was half past four, I remember reading your book, thinking you are not selling this lifestyle, Sam.

Sam Dogen: You know, it’s one of those things where the harder and more miserable your career, the more propelled you will be to try to save and figure out a way out. So that’s kind of the irony because, you know, at the very beginning in 1999, I had to get into the office at 5:30 AM and we’d had to stay past 7:00 PM because I had to connect with my colleagues in Asia. It was just global, it was just around the clock.

But I know if I had a job that was say nine, 9:00 AM and then I left at five with an hour lunch break and coffee break in the afternoon. I probably wouldn’t have worked as hard or saved as much or thought about ways to escape.

Alison Jones: Yes, yes, it drives it. And the point about financial freedom as well, I mean, obviously you talk about the different sort of flavours of financial independence, which I hadn’t known about before fat FIRE, lean FIRE, barista FIRE. I mean, it is all sorts of different, but I love that point you make about, it’s kind of what you need it to be.

So financial freedom might look very, very different to you if you want to go bumming around the world in a camper van, than it might look if you want to swan around in a yacht. So yes, really interesting.

Sam Dogen: It’s really, everything is personal with personal finance. And so I thought, you know, 60, 70, 80,000, live a nice lifestyle in San Francisco. You’re not going to starve. You’re not going to go crazy, but it’s really comfortable, right. But over time as our lives evolve, my wife joined me in fake early retirement, three years later at the age of 35.

And, you know, we said, well, let’s double or try to double our passive income. And then when, so we had children in 2017 and 2019, it’s like, well, they cost a lot of money, at least here in the United States with healthcare, you know we’ve got to pay 2200 a month and that’s unsubsidized healthcare costs. And then there’s preschool tuition that’s $2000 to $3,000 actually. And so it just adds up. And so, but the good thing about that is there’s something to work towards. And I really love working towards a financial goal because it just provides that much more meaning and it provides that much more motivation.

Alison Jones: So I know that there are going to be people listening to this and going well, it’s alright for you, Sam, you were working at Goldman Sachs. You know, you were on a fantastic salary. You have this banking, finance knowledge. Financial freedom, being able to just pay those kind of fees without a job, that’s only for the people who have that kind of background. What would you say to them?

Sam Dogen: Well, I would say if you want to achieve financial independence, it’s more of a mindset than, oh, look at that person. Because we all know people who have made a lot of money who end up broke, bankrupt, who have nothing. And one of the reasons why is because there’s a lack of financial education. Two is because we have desires. We want to buy things. Even if you can afford a $50,000 car or £50,000 car, you look at the £100,000 car and it just ends up going on and on and on.

So one, it’s a mindset shift. So if you start saying, well, of course they could do it because they made that or that, that’s the wrong mindset to have.

You have to adopt the mindset where there are literally trillions and trillions of pounds or dollars out there for the taking, people are getting hundred million dollar severance packages after torpedoing their companies into the ground. People are getting paid tens of millions of dollars to play a professional sport, when they’re actually not playing because of some reason.

The point I’m trying to make is that there’s so much out there. You have to believe you deserve to be rich. And someone like me, I know I came from a middle class background. I went to public school for high school, for college, but I got on the bus. I got on the bus when nobody else was willing to get on that bus that one morning. And it gave me a chance.

It gave me a chance at least to try to get that job, to try to hustle and try to work. And so one of my key sayings is never fail due to a lack of effort because effort requires no skill.

Alison Jones: And just to put that into context, in case people are wondering what you’re talking about with the bus. This is how you got your first job, isn’t it? It was a snowy day, you turned up to go to the Goldman Sachs interview, 20 other people were supposed to be there and just didn’t and you were the only one that went and you say that lovely phrase as well: ‘I discovered that 90% is showing up.’

Sam Dogen: I mean it was a rainy day, Saturday morning, 6:00 AM and 20 people signed up to get on the bus. This was at William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia, two hours south of the career fair at Washington DC and it was a career fair with many financial companies. And so I got there, I was the only one. So after about 50 minutes awaiting, the driver said, you know what? Screw this, let’s take you in a different vehicle. So he drove me in the bus, just me, to some outpost in Williamsburg, Virginia. He swapped out the bus for a Lincoln black town car. And then he drove me for two hours, like a chauffeured limo to Washington DC.

And I said, okay, well, I guess, you know what, more than half the battle is showing up. And I really believe that is true. It’s showing up and then showing consistency in doing what you want, to get to what you want.

Alison Jones: And let’s apply that to writing as well, because it’s a great segue, isn’t it? When you started Financial Samurai, in fact, why don’t you just tell me where the name came from before you go much further, but I imagine you were writing in the early days, pretty much into a vacuum and then gradually build your following.

What keeps you going when it feels like nobody cares what you’re writing?

Sam Dogen: Well, I think as a writer, you need to write for yourself first because we have a lot of emotion, we have a lot of things we’re dealing with. And so when you put something out there online, especially nowadays, someone will find you. It’s the green marble theory that I have, where if you have this janky green marble and you put it on eBay, someone will buy it somewhere because there’s over 4.4 billion people on the internet right now. And it’s just a law of attraction.

The internet provides the greatest ability to attract other people. And so in the beginning, you know, I wanted to write for myself, it was kind of like medication, to go through the therapy, right, to get through the trauma. But then over time, people would find my site through Google search. I would comment on other people’s sites and then leave my URL address. And then over time people say, oh, who’s this guy, Sam, he’s got a website. And it would just gradually grow and share organically from there.

And because I like to write, I like to write first and foremost, I feel it’s just kind of like exercise. Some people exercise three times a week, you know I’ll spend six hours a week, two hours each time, trying to write an article and because, especially after a while it becomes just a part of who you are.

Alison Jones: Yes, but let’s dig into that a little bit because I love that analogy with exercise. So people exercise for a number of different reasons. They exercise because it makes them feel good. They exercise because they want to eat more of the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. They exercise because they’re in a community who do that as part their identity. They exercise because it makes them feel good about themselves.

What are those sort of different levels of reward, if you like, what do you get from writing?

Sam Dogen: Well, one, you get to suss out the ideas in your head, and that’s really rewarding because when you approach a problem and you’re forced to write about it, you really have to think about the problem at hand. And oftentimes by the end of your writing, you come to an optimal solution. That’s one huge reward for me.

It’s kind of like going on a discovery. It’s kind of, I don’t know, maybe people who are musicians will try to create some kind of symphony or opera and it just, those notes just come in their imagination, their heads. So it’s just… yes. So it’s wonderful to capture your ideas and solve problems.

And then two, it’s wonderful to connect with other people with similar ideas and similar problems. Because I think we all have a lot of blind spots where we think one way, but then we don’t realize that it could be the other way. And when someone introduces a new way of thinking, to me that’s really, really exciting and those different perspectives is what I’ve helped incorporate in my book because we all have blind spots and there’s different ways of doing things.

And so many people say, well, if I knew then what I know now, things would be different. Things would be better. I would’ve made better choices. And so that’s part of the goal for my book.

Alison Jones: And another reason which you are too modest to say, I think, is that when you write something like Financial Samurai, and you write it over a period of time and when you get that kind of following. People like Portfolio Penguin come banging on your door saying could you write a book for us.

Sam Dogen: Yes, I mean that’s the thing. Because I got rejected from everybody. I tried to get a literary agent in San Francisco. I probably sent out 30, 40 maybe 50. I don’t know, I don’t remember, just to see if I can get an agent to pitch my story, because you know, Financial Samurai was around for a couple years. It wasn’t as big. Then I said, you know what? Screw it. Nobody wants me. It’s okay. I’m going to continue and I’m going to produce and self-publish my own book on how to negotiate a severance.

And so that’s what I did in 2012, published the book and it’s generating a really healthy, passive income 10 years later.

Alison Jones: Because it speaks to a really specific need that people are actively looking for.

Sam Dogen: Yes, and it’s something that I did. I was able to negotiate a severance and I had no idea that that was possible, but through case studies and through my own experience and just through negotiation and understanding the other side of the story. Aha, this is what’s possible. And if you’re going to quit your job anyway, to take a sabbatical, to go back to school, to retire early, you might as well try to negotiate a severance instead of leave your employer in the lurch by just quitting and saying, see you later. Right?

And so it’s something that was really true to my experience. And at the end of the day, I write a lot, I write actually everything based on firsthand experience. And I think that shows in the community and in my articles.

Alison Jones: I love that attitude, actually. You make it sound so blindingly obvious, but I think for most of us, we wouldn’t like to ask or, you know, we’d feel that it wasn’t appropriate, but you’ve nothing to lose, have you, might as well.

Sam Dogen: Might as well and the thing is it’s actually more thoughtful to try to negotiate a severance than to give a one or two week ‘see you later’ notice, because think about it, in a tight labor market if you leave, you’re going to leave your colleagues and your boss with a hole, and it might take three months to find someone and then it might take another three months to train that person to be up to snuff.

And so if you can hang on, find your replacement, train them and provide seamless transition. Your boss and colleagues will love it.

Alison Jones: Yes, that’s great. And the podcast as well, when did the podcast start happening? Because I love the way you kind of layer the blog and the podcast.

Sam Dogen: I just started recording my thoughts around 2017, and I just felt that it was just an easy way to provide more nuanced content. You know, I talk about the articles that I’ve written and then after I write them, a lot of people would comment and share their stories. And I just thought it would be a great way to share the community’s thoughts and perspectives as well. And to try to provide a little bit more opinion for those frankly who just like to listen.

Alison Jones: And do you find that the audio is a really different market or is it an extension of what you’re offering to the people who are reading the blog?

Sam Dogen: You know, it’s I think an extension because it’s harder to connect with the audio audience because I don’t have any audio responses or comments, right. They’d have to go to the blog or to an article to comment on their thoughts. But the audio is fun because I get to synthesize their thoughts and then share it in audio.

And now that I’m a father, I do a lot of commuting back and forth to send my kids and pick my kids up from school. And so I like to listen to like 10, 20, 30 minute podcast interviews.

Alison Jones: It’s funny, audio has become so much more part of our lives, I think it’s partly because of smart speakers. But it’s also, it’s just a different affordance. I think when you are reading a blog or particularly when you’re watching a video, you’re kind of committed to it, you can’t really do anything else at the same time, but audio, fantastic for doing other stuff at the same time.

Sam Dogen: Yes, great. You know, workout, I like to paint and then listen to a podcast. I mean, finding your podcast, I Google searched non-fiction books, authors, and I was able to listen to you and I’ve been listening to you for several months. So it’s been great, great fun. And a lot of knowledge gained.

Alison Jones: Good, well, I’m very glad to hear it. And here you are now. I love that.

And I still haven’t found out about the title. It’s Financial Samurai. I mean, is it play on Sam?

Sam Dogen: Well, yes, it’s back in 2009 I sat on my bed one evening with my wife to try to figure out what domains were available. And so we probably typed in a hundred names and some worked, some didn’t, but Financial was an obvious word, keyword. And then Sam and Samurai, I used to live in Japan for two years. I love the culture. I love the food, the respect, the honour, everything about Samurai as well and to play on Sam. So I just thought it was a perfect combination.

Alison Jones: And it was available.

Sam Dogen: And it was available.

Alison Jones: It’s a huge thing these days, isn’t it? Brilliant.

So, I mean, a lot of people will be listening and going it’s great that you love writing so much. Me, not so much, but was there anything about this journey that you found frustrating or hard or not what you expected?

Sam Dogen: Well, you know, the hardest part about the journey is maybe criticism. You could have a hundred positive comments and one nasty comment, and it’ll just knock you down for a little bit and make you feel, Ugh, like, why am I doing this? You know, you put everything out there, you bear your heart and soul. You don’t charge anything either. So why are you giving me such a hard time?

And so that is probably one of the hardest things I’ve had to go through and especially the larger you get. Because if you have a hundred readers and 1% of your readership doesn’t like you, then maybe that’s like one comment every hundred, but if you have 1 million readers a month then, you know, 1% is actually a lot of…

Alison Jones: …a significant number of people…

Sam Dogen: …right. And so that’s what you to be careful of. You know, be careful what you wish for as you grow, but I’ve tried to take it in stride. I’ve created a comment commentary series where, you know, there’ll be like some nasty comment. I’ll be okay, let’s see their point of view and see, and I’ve also learned a lot.

Alison Jones: I like that. That’s like jujitsu, isn’t it? I’m just going to take that and I’m going to turn it around and turn it into some more content and some more…

Sam Dogen: Yes, it’s just more content and it’s, to me it’s really entertaining.

 And the other thing to realize is that comments are, and emails are a reflection of who you are, you know, how you feel. Joyful people spread joy to other people. People who are hurt, try to maybe spread hurt to other people.

So it’s a helpful reminder to work on empathy and understanding, even though it stings and hurts and you know, you didn’t attack anybody, you just think, okay, well, there’s something there. Let’s see if we can help or if there’s a blind spot that I’m missing.

Alison Jones: That’s a very highly evolved response, I’m very impressed.

What’s it going to be like when you get the first negative review for the book, which is coming out, we’re speaking in July, 2022 and it’s coming out this month. Isn’t it?

Sam Dogen: Yes, July 19th, 2022.

So what I’ve done, maybe a little bit neurotically or maybe wisely, is I researched the review distributions on Amazon for the 20 books that I read before and while writing my book. And what I saw was that the distribution was, for the successful books out there, the bestseller books, or just doesn’t have to be bestseller, but known books, they had about 70 plus percent five star reviews, maybe 20%, 10%, four star reviews and the rest, you know, three to one star reviews. So like maybe five, 10%, one star reviews. So my hope is you know, I would be delusional to think they would all be five and four star reviews. I’m expecting 10% to just not get it or to be offended by the figures that I throw out or my beliefs and so just to embrace it and say, okay, about 10 to 30% will not be the reviews that I enjoy. And that’s just the way it is.

Alison Jones: That’s really smart. You’ve sort of inoculated yourself against the negative reviews. You are expecting a proportion of reviews to be negative. It sounds really obvious when you say it, but actually I bet most people don’t do that and are devastated by their first negative review.

Sam Dogen: I’m waiting for the negative reviews. But I’m also expecting positive reviews because I think we’re all… It’s so funny, like we all believe that we put out good work, because if we didn’t believe that we wouldn’t put it out yet. Right. We would continue to edit and work on it. But the unfortunate thing is not all of our work will be good, just like not all movies…. Have you ever watched a movie and you’re like, what were the directors thinking? You know, that was terrible.

That was terrible. But the difference with creating movies and TV shows and writers is that their costs are much greater, you know, once they do a shot and you can only reshoot that so many times before your budget blows up. Whereas as a writer, you know, you could just spend another month, redo it, send it to your editors, figure out is this more inclusive, less offensive? Does this make more sense? And so you just keep on polishing that ball until it’s really perfect.

And so I think it’s pretty good, but I think you were going to ask me about like the word count and stuff now or later.

Alison Jones: We should do that. Yes, we should do it now actually, because we are running out of time. But yes, remind me again, Sam, what your contracted length was for the book.

Sam Dogen: So the contracted length for the book was, you know, 70 to 80,000 words.

Alison Jones: Which is actually already fairly substantial to be fair. What was the manuscript that you submitted again?

Sam Dogen: So I submitted about a 118,000 words.

Alison Jones: Which as an editor I am laughing,

Sam Dogen: Well, so they didn’t just say, okay, we cut some stuff, right. We cut some stuff. But why did I violate that? So one, I was like free writing, so I just kept on writing, kept on writing and then I didn’t know the count. And you know, after you do all the chapters, then you add ’em up and then boom, you get like 118,000.

Alison Jones: And you were worried at the beginning. Oh, am I going to have enough material?

Sam Dogen: Maybe no, maybe, maybe, but anyway, I got to 118,000 and they said, oh, it’s too long. So I said, okay. So I cut it down to 110,000 and I tried to cut more and I could have cut more now in retrospect. But my argument was, look, I’m trying to help people achieve financial freedom sooner rather than later with the book Buy This, Not That.

I’m tackling many, many of life’s different dilemmas, whether it’s going to private school or public school, having children earlier in your career or later, relocating to an expensive city like London for your career, or going to a really low cost city to save money. How much you spend on a wedding, all these dilemmas that we all think about.

And so I said, you know what, if the cost of the book is going to be $27.00, I’m going to provide more value, with more content than less, right. And at the end of the day, this is my book, so do you want to work with me or not? And they said you know what we want you to be happy with what you’ve written, Sam. I hear you. And so we came up with a compromise.

So one, I did cut it to 110,000 words, which is 30,000 words too long. Well, not too long, but based on the contract. Two, I argued that’s more value since the price is the same. And then what they said was okay, look, let’s change the size of the book instead of the standard six inch by nine inch, because that would be a 380 page book.

Let’s make it bigger. How about more unique. So we decided to go with 7.45 inches by 9.25 inches, which is bigger. And the upside to that was the content is under 300 pages now. So psychologically you’re reading the book and you’re like, oh, 200…

Alison Jones: …not too heavyweight. I can do this.

Sam Dogen: …287. I can consume that. And then it’s bigger. So if you put it on your bookshelf, the font and the cover, it’ll be like, wow, pretty good. So that was our compromise.

Alison Jones: Yes, I love that. I’d love to talk to your editor about their perspective as well, but we’re going to, I’m just so conscious of the time, which is annoying because I can speak to you all day about this.

But I always ask my guests, Sam, as you know, because you’re a listener, what’s your one tip, you know, for somebody listening and maybe they don’t find it quite so easy the writing, you know, what would be your one tip for them to get started?

Sam Dogen: I believe if you can speak forever, you can write forever, and you don’t have to write perfectly. You just have to get it out there. You know, maybe it’s like just blah, just getting it out there. And then from there, if you practice every single day to get something out there, set a limit, 30 minutes, one hour, get your free flowing thoughts out there.

I promise you, your writing will get better. I promise you that. And it is a muscle that you will train and over time I think you’ll be become so dependent on it that you can’t help but not write every single day

Alison Jones: I love it. You do it by doing it.

Sam Dogen: mm-hmm

Alison Jones: Yes, wonderful. And I always ask as well for a business book recommendation. It doesn’t have to a business book, but not Buy This, Not That, but another book, what would you recommend?

Sam Dogen: I have a couple books. One is Healing Back Pain by Dr. Sarno. And it’s a wonderful book for anybody who feels any type of chronic pain in their lives, because there’s been an explosion of chronic pain, not just back pain, but tennis elbow, golfers elbow, sciatica, numbness, TMJ, all that stuff. And the reason is because we are just always going, going, going, stressed, hustling, and we have all this anxiety.

And so it’s a wonderful book to help you conquer that pain and make you feel better every day.

Alison Jones: I did not see that coming. Great. Thank you.

Sam Dogen: Yes, check it out. It’s amazing. Life saving book.

And then the second book is what is it called, it’s by Brad Stolberg, it’s called The Practice of Groundedness and he’s a Portfolio Penguin author, and there’s another book called From Strength To Strength by Arthur C. Brooks, also a Portfolio Penguin author. And I get these books now that I’m an author, they just send it to me. But these books help you, you know, for those who are trying to achieve something and for those who are trying to go from producing to the next stage of their life, because they’ve lost some of their desire or their skill to be a great producer, From Strength To Strength helps you in the second stage of your life. Let’s say you’re over 45 and how do you find meaning in your life? And The Practice of Groundedness helps you feel less anxious and more purposeful in you’re doing.

Alison Jones: I like the word groundedness. It sounds like it has something in common with mindfulness, but groundedness, I think we can, you can always physically sort of relax into that word, can’t you? It’s powerful. Love it.

And Sam, if people want to find out more about you, more about the book, more about the blog, more about the podcast, where should they go?

Sam Dogen: Yes, so you can purchase Buy This, Not That: How to spend your way to wealth and freedom at financialsamurai.com/BTNT.

You can subscribe to my free newsletter. It’s financialsamurai.com/newsletter.

And if you want to chat or just trade ideas, you can go to any article on Financial Samurai or any financial topic. You type it in Google and then type Financial Samurai. You’ll probably see an article that I’ve written, because I’ve written over 2,500 over the past 13 years. And just leave a comment, leave a comment and I’ll find it.

Alison Jones: That’s a great sort of discovery tool in itself, isn’t it? Just if somebody’s, you’re right, if somebody’s typing in anything about you, they’re going to find one of your articles. I love that.

Wonderful, it’s been an absolute joy talking to you, Sam. Thank you so much for your insights today.

Sam Dogen: Great. Great chatting.

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