Episode 393 – The Emotional Overdraft with Andy Brown

Andy Brown‘Sometimes it’s just writing to get it out… you can almost interrogate it more. You can hold it in your hand and you can explore it and you can look at it and then maybe it becomes something or maybe it doesn’t.’

Having a good idea is a great place to start when you’re writing a business book. But it’s only a start. Then comes the real work: testing that idea out, articulating it clearly, and – perhaps hardest of all – drawing out the ‘so what?’ 

Andy Brown has been through all these stages with The Emotional Overdraft – from recognising that business growth often has a human cost that’s hidden from the balance sheet but is no less real for that to developing effective metrics to help leaders manage that cost for themselves and their people. 

If you’re a ‘doer’ whose go-to answer is ‘just work harder’ or a writer struggling to develop your idea or – even better – both, this is for you.  

AUDIO:

VIDEO:

The Emotional Overdraft website: https://emotionaloverdraft.com/

Andy’s website: etc.co.uk

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Alison Jones: I’m here today with Andy Brown, who is a non executive director, leadership coach, speaker, and author. He provides coaching to leaders in people based businesses, enabling them to make better decisions and to build more valuable businesses. He coaches founders and he’s advised many agencies as they prepare themselves for sale.

And he’s the author of The Emotional Overdraft: 10 simple changes for balancing business success and wellbeing.

So first of all, welcome, Andy. It’s great to have you here.

Andy Brown: Hello, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Alison Jones: Should we start with that title? It’s funny, when you say The Emotional Overdraft, I know you and I have talked about this, people always go, huh? They recognize it, even though they’ve never heard that phrase before. Tell us about it.

Andy Brown: Yes, I guess you can take the boy out of marketing; you can’t take marketing out of the boy. And my background is in advertising and marketing. So I like labels and I talk to my clients about labeling a lot of the time. And I’m a strong believer that if you, it’s where brands come from.

If you can condense something into a name and it stands for a lot more without you having to say it, then that’s a good thing. And I think the sense of, so emotional overdraft, an emotional overdraft, as I’ve defined it in the book, I think it has a broader perspective than in the book, but as I’ve defined it, it’s when a leader or a leader in a business is paying for or subsidizing the success of their business through their own physical or mental cost and that’s…

Alison Jones: They will be.

Andy Brown: …emotional overdraft.

That’s that unseen, untracked, unmonitored cost that founders and leaders and entrepreneurs are paying. And my research, you know, I’ve spoken to lots and lots of people about it, shows that almost everyone, almost everyone who runs their own business or is leading a business, suffers from, to some extent, from an emotional overdraft.

So, I think it really helps just to have a word or a little phrase for it. And people do seem to respond to it very well. They seem to understand immediately what it’s about. Yes, it’s that kind of…

…there’s the intangible of emotions and the tangible of overdraft, which we all, you know, almost all of us, can understand all too well.

And you bolt those things together and you kind of understand the business application of this, which is the cost that you’re carrying, which isn’t visible generally in most metrics.

Alison Jones: Yes. It’s an invaluable metaphor, but I think your point that you started off early with that sort of marketing perspective, it’s one of the best things you can do as an author, isn’t it? Is give someone a name for something that they’ve been aware of, but until now they didn’t have the language to talk about particularly.

Andy Brown: I hope so. Yes, I think so. And that’s really what was interesting about the book. I spent, yes, years after the research, thinking about it, drafting it, writing things, starting, stopping, probably common to a lot to people. And what in the end forced me to do something about it was I felt it was so important.

The phrase was so important. And my original concept for the book was really just to kind of explain the concept. And as I was working through the research, what I realized was that one thing is to go, this is what this feeling is you have, this is this thing you’re dealing with on a day to day basis to a greater or lesser extent. But my entire career has been working in people based businesses and working with founders and leaders in people based businesses. And everything I do all day long is helping people pretty much address the emotional overdraft, which is, there’s an interesting, I think there’s an interesting point about this, which is at one level, people get it and they go, well, it’s the emotional overdraft, it’s the emotions, it’s the stress, it’s overwhelm, those sorts of expressions.

But the other thing is an emotional overdraft stops you running your business in an optimal way as well.

Alison Jones: So there is actually a financial element to that.

Andy Brown: There is utterly a financial element. And that’s the overdraft component of that is, you know, that it hints at that really, which is there are better ways to run your business, which if you think about them, reduce your emotional overdraft.

Because if the answer, whatever the question, the answer equals, I must work harder, you’re doing it wrong, we’ve all done it. We’ve all done it and we will go to it quite often. So I think that’s almost the most unseen part of this. So the second half of the book is really all about saying, which I hadn’t anticipated when I started the research, I think, was so what can you do about it?

And that’s maybe what makes a business book more valuable. If it’s I can’t remember who said it, but it might’ve been, doesn’t matter. But it was this idea of, lots of business books, it was David Welling who used to run a huge paper company, brilliant Cranfield lecturer. And he said that most business books he’s read really are just articles. that have been beefed up. And what I desperately didn’t want to do was write an article, develop an idea and then try and find 200 more pages to waffle on about it and repeat it.

Alison Jones: We’re not keen on that either. And actually it’s hugely frustrating, isn’t it? Because having got to the end of the first section where you go, Oh, right! A. This is a thing. B. I’m not alone. Which is a very, very important thing that a business book does. You’re then like, right, what’s the solution? Which of course you go on to deliver.

But some books don’t. They just say, isn’t that fascinating?

Andy Brown: Which I understand because it’s the thing that excited me about it. Once I’d realized this thing I’ve been working with clients for, you know, for decades, I realized once I’d kind of coined the phrase and it’s a metaphor that people have used in the past. I mean, I didn’t invent the metaphor, but I definitely, it came into my mind. And then I subsequently discovered, obviously, there’s very few new metaphors, but the idea of taking it and doing something with it was really profoundly exciting, and now I’m on a bit of a mission.

I am definitely an emotional overdraft bore. It’s not about the book, I’m terribly sorry to say, it’s about the mission to give, I mean, I think there’s two million small businesses in the UK alone, goodness knows how many there are in Europe and the US and around the world, but people who run small businesses, even if all you do is hear the term and broadly understand what it means, it will help someone.

Alison Jones: Identifying the problem is the first step to solving the problem, absolutely, and we shouldn’t just leave them there. Let’s give them at least a taste of the sorts of ways that you set out in the book so people can start to address that overdraft.

Andy Brown: Yes, so what I identified in the research was that there are 10 core drivers behind the behavior that causes an emotional overdraft. So the 10, whatever people say the reasons are when they stop and think about it, they break down into 10 areas, I won’t go through them.

But for example, one I called JFDI which my editor very carefully explained I should refer to as ‘just flipping do it’ because she didn’t want me to use any other version of that, but this JFDI behavior or doers, you know, there are doers and entrepreneurs and business founders tend to be doers. And so what happens is that as a business grows, you take on more people.

There was a lovely description someone said, I started off, I had 12 hats. I wore 12 hats in my business and now I have 12 staff and I’ve still got 12 hats. And that was really clear what was happening, that person was just, I just get on with it, I just do stuff, I make stuff happen. And unfortunately, that pressure that comes from feeling you have to behave that way causes you to be less effective, it causes you to sleep less well, I mean there’s ripples into your family life, your fitness might start to decline, you go to the gym less often.

And, there’s a double whammy, which is that you tend to undermine the people who work in your business, you make them feel like, well, I won’t bother then because he’ll pick it up. He’ll do it. Or, you know, if you just cut in and jump in and do stuff, people feel very diminished by that. And that’s that lovely quote from Multipliers, the accidental diminisher rather than the multiplier which I have been guilty of.

But entrepreneurs, a lot of them, people who start businesses, it’s a default setting for them and it’s very hard to change. And so what I’m saying in the book in that section, the JFDI section, is recognize the behavior. And there’s a survey in the book, which was not originally my idea, so it was my first editor, Ginny Carter, came up with the idea of having what we called a Cosmo quiz for a long time, which people have said, I don’t know if there is a Cosmo quiz anymore, but I’ve got a sister and she used to read Cosmo and you do these quizzes.

But it’s a 50 question self assessment. Which tells you if you have an emotional overdraft and you know, don’t bother because you do

Alison Jones: I was going to say, spoiler alert.

Andy Brown: You do. But to greater or lesser extent, and it sort of delves into whether or not you pay it off or not, but then it also takes the questions and gives you the ten drivers and tells you if, which of those drivers are really your drivers, and not everyone has all ten.

Not if they’re still in business, probably. But they have a few. So with JFDI, with the just do it, you know, the do it mentality, the doer, spotting it is one thing, but knowing that it is contributing to your emotional overdraft, I think then gives people who identify as doers. These are people who go I just get on, I get shit done, I’m just one of those people. Sorry if I’m not allowed to say that.

Alison Jones: I’m sure we’ll get that past Apple, don’t worry about it.

Andy Brown: Yes, so if you identify as that, you’re actually creating problems for yourself. So again, it’s a label, spot that behavior, and then you can start to do things about it.

And there’s a lot you can do about that. Clearly there is, you can learn to delegate more, you can employ great people and seek to learn from them. You can, every time you find yourself stepping in develop little little hacks where you think well, what what could I do differently? So currently i’m on one of my diets, so, you know, we were talking about earlier. But what I’ve started doing is when I look at a certain, when I look at food, I go, what would a healthy person do? What would a healthy eater do? And it’s really working for me. It just stops me for a moment and makes me consider whether that Snickers bar is really important or not.

So it’s the same thing, I think, with doers. You can go, what would a great delegator do here? What would someone do who really wants their team to step up and be able to thrive in this environment because it’s typically accidental. So that’s one of the drivers. And those are the sorts of things that we go and explore in the book.

So it’s, what is it? And then what can you do about it? And there’s a lot of chit chat. And that’s really been my job for the last 20 years, is I get clients who struggle with this stuff. So I hadn’t realized it, but it is kind of, I’ve been doing, I’ve been helping people with emotional overdraft for a long time.

Alison Jones: Yes, and the book pulls it all together and articulates it and you touch on something there that I think is interesting as well, because when you and I first talked about the concept, I totally got it, you know, as a founder, as an entrepreneur, you’re like, yes, no, I, absolutely. And the doer mentality, you talked about the impact on the team that you actually talk, this is a systemic issue.

This is not just about you as an individual. This is about your whole organization. You talk about the team elements as well, don’t you?

Andy Brown: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I’ve got to say, I think emotional overdraft is a universal challenge. We, for example, this isn’t in the book and isn’t the reference, but you’ve had a long week, you’re tired, Saturday night, you want to spend Saturday night in, you want to watch Strictly, you want to eat a curry, a takeaway of some kind.

I’m slightly food obsessed, so I apologize. This is not going well, my diet.

Alison Jones: How’s the diet going?

Andy Brown: It’s not going too well.

But, you know, you want to crash on Saturday night and do nothing and veg, and that’s absolutely legitimate. And a friend phones you up at four o’clock and goes, we’re all going out. And you go, oh, I don’t want to say no, I don’t want to let them down. I said no last time, so you go.

And you may have a great time but what you really, really wanted was to spend the evening in and vegging. And it’s cost you something. It’s cost you something emotionally to have done that. And so I think it is a universal challenge. So of course it exists in businesses and of course it exists with teams.

And of course, you know, they have… so one of the thoughts is that there are people who wouldn’t recognize this, there were a few people that go, I don’t have an emotional overdraft or I do, but I don’t have it very often. But when you dig into that, what you discover is that they tend to be parasites on other people’s emotional overdrafts. They’re sort of borrowing. And I wish I’d thought of that when I wrote the book.

Alison Jones: That’s nice.

Andy Brown: They’re kind of parasitic in the sense that, you know, it might be their partner who are losing out or it might be their colleagues. And the same thing is true the other way around, which is you have a whole team of people. So, you know, in the hierarchy of a business, potentially a leadership team and then heads of department and then people in those teams, they’re all dealing with this too. They’re all resolving the business challenges they’re dealing with quite often at their own expense. And I think if you can lead with an understanding of the term.

And if you use the term, then there’s some real value that can be had because people can then go, that’s the thing I’m dealing with. And my suggestion in the book is that there was a missing metric. So I spent most of my career reading P& L, I’m sorry, profit and loss and balance sheets and looking at management dashboards and management information.

And this emotional overdraft cost line is invisible. It isn’t quantifiable and people tend to call the management information, the financials. Lots of people could refer to, let’s look at the financials. And I always go, no, it’s the management information or management intelligence because the financials are one component, but it’s easy to ignore the other things.

And an emotional overdraft I’ve established, I think is measurable, at least on a base level. So has it gone up or has it gone down rather than it’s actual quantity. And if you can do that, then you could look at your leadership team and say, well, let’s track it on a monthly basis. I mean, there’s recency bias with this, so you have to do it on a day by day basis.

But as a team, yes, we’ve become more profitable this month, but the missing invisible metric is our…

Alison Jones: What’s it costing us? Yes.

Andy Brown: Actually, you know, as a group our average has gone from 106 index to 116 this month. So is that sustainable? I’ve run businesses. I’ve been an MD over the years and the chief exec and I’ve run businesses where we’ve really flogged the horses, knowingly.

We’ve all collectively gone on that journey because there was some event likely to happen at the end of it, which did in a couple of cases. But it is an invisible cost. And I think coaches could look at emotional overdraft and start thinking about, well, we now have a metric. We have a metric for how well this team is functioning at a physical and mental level. M & A, which is a sort of part of the world I exist in or in recent years have existed in, could look at if you’re buying a business…

Alison Jones: Yes.

Andy Brown: …you’re not looking at the collective net aggregated emotional overdraft within that business. What do you, if you just trust the bottom right hand number, which is the net profit, is it really that profitable? Or is there something invisible going on that needs to be quantified in some way.

So I think there’s mileage in that. And definitely it is across, it will occur across teams. So again, it comes back to the label. I think having a label is a useful thing, even if it’s slightly misused, even if it’s slightly misapplied, I don’t think that matters.

I think just having, there isn’t another term for this…

Alison Jones: Yes. And it brings it out of the shadows and suddenly you’ve got some language to use and you can talk about it and then you can start quantifying and measuring and even just the fact that you are talking about it means that you can no longer ignore it. And that’s really valuable.

Andy Brown: Even if you wanted to.

Alison Jones: Even if you wanted to.

Andy Brown: Because it won’t go away. It’s kind of like riding a bike. Once you know it,

Alison Jones: Yes, you can’t unsee it.

Andy Brown: You can’t unsee it. Yes. not like riding a bike at all.

Alison Jones: No, it’s not like riding a bike. We’ve just mixed our metaphors horribly, but yes.

I want to talk to you about writing as well though, Andy, because as well as writing the book, I know that you write a very good, because I get it, weekly newsletter. Writing obviously matters to you. Just tell me a little bit more about what it does for you, why you value it.

Andy Brown: I do, I do write a lot and I don’t do any client meetings on Fridays. I keep my Friday clear for writing and I try and write and all my clients know that and don’t get in my way. I think, I think it’s very easy to sit on the side and to go, well, I don’t agree with that or I wouldn’t have said that or, to not contribute in the debate, whatever the debate is. It’s quite easy, you know, I’m in a football chat forum for Brighton and Hove Albion fans, the poor souls, and the vast majority of people don’t contribute, but a few do. And I think my internal settings say you should contribute to the debate and risk being criticized and risked being wrong and risk, because the risk is worth it, because if you take the debate on, then you’ve done something worthwhile.

And I think in business, I mean, we’re in the world of AI and there’s an awful lot of content being produced that is just kind of regurgitated garbage, but I think in the world of business, there’s still not enough debate about, certainly the areas I work in, which is leadership and growing businesses and building value and so on, I think there’s not enough debate. So I write to share my thoughts, not because I’m a complete egomaniac, but because I want to contribute to the debate and I probably write as much on LinkedIn, for example, in Comments as I do articles because I think that’s other people trying to start the debate. So that makes it a bit more legitimate I think if, you contribute.

Alison Jones: It’s a really good point because an awful lot of people who do put out weekly newsletters do so in a very unidirectional way. So they’re broadcasting, but they’re not particularly perhaps, listening or conversing. So I like the distinction that you make there. It is hard to find time to do it.

And it’s really interesting that you have set aside a whole day for it. And presumably that wasn’t just about the book, that’s just generally.

Andy Brown: That was way before the book, yes, that was way before the book. I discovered, I mean, I’m a coach, as well as a non exec, but I have my own coach and quite a long time ago he helped me understand that learning was really important for me. I’m a very curious person. Everything I see, I’m interested in.

Everything is interesting, you know, how things work. And I diverted myself with jet engines this morning, which I really shouldn’t have done, but, you know, I thought I knew how they worked and I didn’t as it transpires.

But what I realized was that it’s really important for me to keep learning, and I’ve been running businesses, and doing some non exec work, but basically you don’t learn anything new, you just take what you know, you apply it.

You might find new circumstances, but you’re applying the same stuff. And I’ve been in a desert, a sort of learning desert for a very long time. And once I realized that I thrive on learning, then everything changed again for me. And I love my job, I love the discussion, I love researching, I love reading.

Which I always have done, but it used to feel like it was a luxury to read or to research. And now what I’ve realized is, and I encourage all my clients to do the same, is find time to keep learning because you will atrophy as a business leader. You will end up just stopping. And the second you remember to carry on learning, everything opens up and it’s a kind of huge, multiplying effect on what you do because you become interested and you become interested in other people’s thinking so…

Alison Jones: …and you become more interesting.

Andy Brown: And more interesting potentially or you just rabbit on.

My newsletter is rambling on, which clients of mine said Andy you do talk a lot and…

Alison Jones: What I love is that you said about putting Fridays aside for writing, but actually embedded within that is that Kolb’s learning cycle. You know, you’re not just writing, you’re reading, you’re researching, and the writing is a really essential part of that to make it equal learning.

Andy Brown: And not uninteresting, it’s, yes, you’re right, and I don’t always publish what I write. I’ve come to understand recently that quite often I send myself emails where, not a, you know, Dear Andy type emails, but where I’m just jotting down an idea that I’m playing with or thinking about and I’ll just send it to myself, or I’ll just put it somewhere, rarely in my book, I don’t tend to write longhand.

I tend to type now, I tend to live in front of the keyboard, but so it’s not always writing to, sometimes it’s just writing to get it out. It’s not quite catharsis, but it’s writing to, when you say it in writing or say it out loud, which is even better actually you can almost interrogate it more. You can hold it in your hand and you can explore it and you can look at it and then maybe it becomes something or maybe it doesn’t.

So that’s really, I suppose that’s where emotional overdraft came from was, originally, it was an idea. It was definitely scribbled in a pad somewhere, which I just can’t find, which is frustrating. But and I spent time holding on to it, and I thought, I wonder if this is real? So then I did the research. I’ve got a background in research, so I did the qual research. And back it came. All these people going, ‘bloody hell’. And I said, you know, if this thing was called Emotional Overdraft, would you kind of relate to it?

And they go, yes, that’s what it is. That’s what it is. And then suddenly it takes on a life of its own, and you’ve got a publisher, and you’re late on the audiobook, and all the other things start happening to you.

Alison Jones: And I think that’s so fascinating because we talk about writing so often in a way that means writing for other people. And of course, you know, I’m all about exploratory writing, which is that sort of first stage and it just weaves through all the phases of an idea. I love that.

And I’m conscious of the time, I could actually, I genuinely could ramble on with you all day. It’s brilliant. And I want to get your best tip.

So somebody’s just starting out on this task. We have talked today about research, about reading, about writing, about the whole concept of running a business and how you manage that and how you manage yourself. It’s a lot. What’s your best tip for someone who’s just starting off on the journey?

Andy Brown: On the journey of writing a book,

Alison Jones: yes.

Andy Brown: Get writing.

Alison Jones: Is it JFDI?

Andy Brown: It’s, well, there’s nothing wrong with JFDI either. That’s the interesting thing. These behaviors are not bad behaviors in themselves, but they’re contributors, let’s not go there. Yes, get writing. And I can’t remember which book I read it in, but there’s this idea of, don’t try and write, this is what I’ve done and I’ve written it. There’s a few unwritten…. I’ve got a great book called Glut, which is a cookery book for people that grow their own vegetables, where you just have this glut of you know,

Alison Jones: What can you do with five bags of tomatoes? Yes.

Andy Brown: You know, I don’t want a recipe that says use one courgette. I’ve got 50 courgettes, I want to build an outhouse or something.

 Get writing, but don’t try and write the perfect first chapter.

Write, write an article, write something, write the full arc of the thing even if it’s terrible. Because then you kind of get a sense of what it is that you’re going to be producing. I think a lot of people have written some fantastic first chapters and never got any further and craft and re craft and re craft probably because they’re afraid of going further and so be brave actually is probably the advice.

Be brave and write some more. Keep writing.

Alison Jones: I always think that writing, it’s like a snowplough, isn’t it? It’s only when you start writing beyond what you already know, that you start to uncover the stuff that you hadn’t articulated before, that you didn’t quite know. And if you just stay within the bit that you already can talk to people about with confidence, you’re never going to expand beyond that.

Andy Brown: No and be curious. Keep being curious and what happens is a book will happen.

Alison Jones: Yes, and actually that point about metaphors, I think ties in really well there as well in that the more widely read you are, the more curious you are about how the world works, the more pictures of what you’re talking about that other people can understand will pop into your head, the more metaphors are available to you, which is always really, really helpful.

I’m looking forward to seeing what you do with jet engines. for example.

Andy Brown: It’ll come up somewhere.

Alison Jones: It’ll come up somewhere. Absolutely. It’s all fuel, isn’t it, when you’re a writer. I love that. Brilliant. And I always ask my guests, Andy, to recommend a book. It doesn’t have to be a business book. Traditionally, it often is. But which book would you recommend that people read?

Andy Brown: So I couldn’t, I’ve got quite a few and…

Alison Jones: Yes, we can see this. If you’re looking on YouTube, you can see a few books behind Andy.

Andy Brown: Yes, I was going to go with Multipliers but i’ve mentioned that already. That’s Liz Wiseman’s book, utterly brilliant, and that was given to me by a member of my team. I’d been MD for about 10 years at that point. She gave me this book and she said if you read this, I think you could one day become a good managing director but she was spot on, a brilliant book and it was a blind spot.

But I’m going to go with Connect, which is David Bradford and Carole Robin’s Connect, and they run the touchy-feely course at Stanford. It’s the most oversubscribed. It’s the how you connect with other people course on their MBA. It’s the most oversubscribed course on the MBA, University referred to as the touchy feely course.

And Connect is just brilliantly written, brilliantly written. It shows how you can take six stories and thread them through a book. It reads like a novel, but it’s actually a fantastic business book.

Alison Jones: Amazing. I haven’t read that. That was a great recommendation.

Andy Brown: Oh it’s honestly, and I don’t like to recommend books to people because it puts a kind of burden on people if you’re not… so I always tend to… one on one I check and I say, do you have capacity to read a book at the minute?

Because then I’ll recommend it. I think it’s wrong to, yes, it’s wrong to just recommend books.

Alison Jones: Yes. Do you know, the people listening to this podcast, they are at the end of this fire hose of business book recommendations. And I think they’re good with that. I don’t think they’d be here if they weren’t.

Andy Brown: Okay. Okay.

Alison Jones: Yes, I think we’re good. You don’t have to read them all people, just so you know.

Yes. Good. Amazing.

 If people want to find out more about you, Andy, more about The Emotional Overdraft and just more broadly the work that you do, where should they go?

Andy Brown: So the book and I’m recording podcasts about it, always writing articles about it, that’s emotionaloverdraft.com And then if you want to know more about me and the work I do etc.co.uk . That’s my my business coaching and and non- execing site and there’s a very nice searchable database of quite a few hundred articles in there. If you’ve got business issues and you want to find out how you sack someone or how you hire someone, there’ll be an article about that.

Alison Jones: Brilliant. And can they subscribe to your newsletter there as well?

Andy Brown: They can, thank you for mentioning that. So yes, that’s on etc.co. uk and it’s Rambling On is its name, which is actually three short articles currently fortnightly because I’ve been writing the book, but it will go back to weekly very soon. And it gets great reviews and I don’t measure that by the way by how many people subscribe to it.

So you’re talking about, you know, what’s the purpose of these things? I measure how many people open it.

Alison Jones: Yes.

Andy Brown: So I don’t really mind how many people subscribe. I do mind if people open it or not, and if they read it. And I can measure that, and it has really good open rates, and that makes me very grateful.

Alison Jones: Yes, brilliant. Engagement, not simply visibility. Love it.

Andy Brown: It’s just not shouting into the void, you know.

Alison Jones: Yes, which we do an awful lot of. I seem to do an awful lot of it. It’s funny, when you write a newsletter, as I do, of course, as well, you sort of send it out and you sort of think, is actually anybody reading this? And then somebody will come up to you at a trade show, or as they did the other day for me, or just in conversation, and say, I loved what you said about Suddenly it’s all worth it because you know that they might not be hitting reply and engaging in conversation on it, but they are reading it, they are taking it in and it actually, it was good for you to write it and some people at least are reading it and that’s, what more can you ask really?

Andy Brown: I make the point of, if I read things in newsletters, and I subscribe to quite a few, that strikes me, I just drop a quick line back sometimes because I know that it’s disproportionately impactful if you do…

Alison Jones: Yes.

Andy Brown: …and I would encourage anyone who’s listening to this that if you read a newsletter and you go that was great, you don’t have to say anything profound just write back and say that was great.

Alison Jones: You did exactly that for me the other day, didn’t you? And it made my day.

Andy Brown: Yes but not with any intent other than just I thought it was a lovely thing, it was a great, you know your podcast is fantastic

Alison Jones: And here you are on it. Brilliant.

Andy Brown: Here’s me on it, yes.

Alison Jones: Amazing.

Andy, thank you so much for your time today. We have ranged really widely and it’s all been pure gold. Thank you.

Andy Brown: Thank you for having me.

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