“As she was coached during a 15-minutes conversation, she put down each of those worries and at the end of it she was standing there in her full potential and I was like, wow, that’s amazing. I want to learn how to do that.”
If there’s a foundational text of executive coaching it’s Coaching for Performance by Sir John Whitmore, first published in 1992. Sadly John died in 2017 and so Tiffany Gaskell, who co-founded Performance Consultants with John and worked with him on the 5th edition in 2017, became the driving force behind the new, post-pandemic 6th edition.
She talks to me about the power of coaching, its evolution since 1992, and how it has become so foundational for organizational and personal growth. We also explore the link between coaching and writing, and how embracing coaching principles can help you fulfil your full potential as a writer. And we’re all here for that, right?
Performance Consultants site: https://www.performanceconsultants.com/
Tiffany on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tiffanygaskell/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
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Alison Jones: I’m here today with Tiffany Gaskell, who is the co-CEO of Performance Consultants. She’s spent 20 years working with the C suite at Fortune 500 to SMEs on performance coaching and culture transformation, and she’s a regular presenter and keynote speaker. Her background is in investment banking, having previously worked at Credit Suisse in New York and London, and she’s the co-author of the sixth edition of Coaching for Performance, the seminal book by Sir John Whitmore, which was first published in 1992.
So first of all, welcome, Tiffany. It’s really, really good to have you here. It’s quite the CV, isn’t it?
Tiffany Gaskell: Thank you. Well, I think it’s a bit of a sort of a round the garden sort of approach to what I’m doing now, you know, having started off in investment banking.
Alison Jones: Yes, and great background for it. And I’d love to know, I mean, before you were the co-editor of Coaching for Performance, presumably at some point you discovered it as a reader.
Tell me about the history of your relationship with the book.
Tiffany Gaskell: So, if we turn the clock back, so in 2000, the year 2000, I was sitting on the trading floor and I was one of five women on a trading floor of 200 men and I had a great career. I loved it. The thing was that what I was starting to realize was that it was someone else’s version of success. And what I needed to do was go and find my version of success. And that’s when I discovered coaching. The first time I saw coaching in action. I have to tell you because it was one of those light bulb moments, you know, and so I saw two people, it was a demonstration and I saw the person being coached.
You know, she arrived, she had all the worries of the world on her shoulders. And as she was coached during a 15 minute conversation, she put down each of those worries. And at the end of it, she was standing there in her full potential. And I was like, wow, that’s amazing. I want to learn how to do that.
Alison Jones: It’s magic.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, yes, really. It’s the work of angels, is what sort of popped into my mind. And I wanted to learn to do that….
Alison Jones: that’s marvellous.
Tiffany Gaskell: …to do that for individuals, but whole organizations. Because I was a business person. So it’s a whole organization. So then,
Alison Jones: So when did you discover the book?
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, so then I was lucky enough to come across Sir John Whitmore and David Brown.
And John was at a point in his career where he wanted to really take the world global. And that’s where we co-founded Performance Consultants International, which was the new iteration of Performance Consultants, which he had founded in 1982. I mean, he was way ahead, way ahead.
Alison Jones: He really was. I mean, this is where it all started, isn’t it? It’s astonishing. He’s the sort of godfather of coaching.
Tiffany Gaskell: Exactly. And that’s the thing that he was the first person to call coaching, coaching. So coaching had been happening in sports, but sports coaching was all about telling people what to do, instructing as opposed to looking for potential. And so all forms of…
Alison Jones: …and of course he developed the GROW model as well.
Tiffany Gaskell: Exactly. The GROW Model, which was first published in Coaching for Performance in the 1992 version, which is the most used coaching model in the world today.
Alison Jones: Absolutely. And it’s what I was trained in when I trained as a coach. Yes, absolutely.
Tiffany Gaskell: So yes. Standing on the shoulders of giants is what we say really, you know, and him having written the book and yes, so that’s how I came across.
Alison Jones: And what was that invitation like to be involved as a co-editor? This was the fifth edition, wasn’t it? That you were first involved in.
Tiffany Gaskell: The 5th edition, it was a total surprise because what happened was that the 5th edition was planned and you know, John was involved and then, something changed so that his health wasn’t so good. So I stepped into help and so that’s really how that happened.
And of course, because I’d been working with him for, you know, over a decade. I always say that it takes a while to get to understand exactly where someone’s coming from, but all that time working with him, I really felt that I understood kind of what the direction he wanted to take it in.
Alison Jones: The experience of solo editing after his death must have been bittersweet. I mean, the book continues and that’s really powerful, but he’s no longer here.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, yes, I know, it’s sort of, it’s one of those sort of strange things. Like seeing an actor on screen, you know, who’s no longer here. But the thing is that, the amazing thing is that John’s personality and his essence is still very much in the book. And so when I’m working on the book, it’s like having a conversation with him.
You know, it’s sort of, just as it always was in a way, because there are his words and he wrote so well, you know, he used to write a newspaper column and so he had a fantastic turn of phrase and a fantastic way of getting things across.
Alison Jones: Journalism is such a good training ground, isn’t it, for writing an engaging book.
But it’s so interesting what you say as well, that, you know, in a sense, he is still with us, just as an actor is because we see the film still on screen, you know, he and other authors leave their brains in their books so that we can still continue to sort of meet their minds.
And it’s a real legacy piece, isn’t it?
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes. Legacy, that was the word that was coming to mind as you were saying that. And that’s what we’re doing really, we’re continuing John’s legacy, you know, and so proud to do it. And it feels so, you know, I was with the team last week in London and it feels so on purpose for us as well.
So, you know, it’s a group of like minded people who’ve come together to fulfill his vision, of transforming the global workplace.
Alison Jones: Wow. Hairs on the back of the neck moment.
Coaching was a very, as you say underused or little understood word in a business context when John began this work. It’s now arguably perhaps an overused word or a word that’s become devalued because it’s used so much.
Just talk me through the sort of trajectory, just quickly in a couple of minutes, talk me through the last 40 years of coaching and you know, where it’s come from, where it’s been, where it’s going. That’s not a huge question.
Tiffany Gaskell: Love that question. I love a challenge. So coaching, I mean obviously him being a visionary. When I was on the trading floor, knew nothing about coaching. Actually, it was the first time, just before I was leaving the trading floor, that someone called me and told me about coaching. So in terms of awareness in business, you know, it was right down there at sort of the turn of the century, if you like.
Then we move on and as you say now complete explosion of coaching. And I think that’s really in response to, it was growing anyway, but it was always in a nice-to-have bucket. And you know, what are we talking about here? We’re talking about people fulfilling their potential. We’re talking about organizations becoming the platforms through which people find their purpose and that potential.
And with COVID it really changed everything because suddenly organizations were found wanting, you know, where was the meaning and purpose? You know, that I’m looking for every day when I get up, in the one life that I’ve got, you know, it’s suddenly there was stark sort of light shed on this.
So yes, I think that now there’s an absolute explosion of coaching. And the thing that we’re standing for is the professionalization of it, but also the democratization. So it being throughout the whole organization. And that’s where we’re working with clients like Johnson and Johnson and Medtronic, Volvo, for example, all over the world to help get these skills into the hands of leaders, transformational leaders who then will lead a culture that enables the fulfillment of potential.
Alison Jones: It’s so interesting to hear you speak about the democratization as well as the professionalization. I mean, there’s so much to go into here because it is an unregulated industry effectively, isn’t it? So the democratization, the professionalization, but also the recognition of the role that it performs in people’s lives.
Because I think in the past it had been seen as almost remedial, hadn’t it? And then there was also a change and it became seen as something that only for high potential people.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes. Yes. It’s one extreme to another, isn’t it? And yes, no, I totally agree with you.
You know, back when I was in banking, if it was bought into the bank, it was probably a remedial thing. You know, but things, understanding of human potential and understanding of what people in the workplace want now, it’s the multi generations that are pushing organizations really to create cultures that they can thrive in.
And that’s what the book is in service of, both from a coach point of view, but also from the leader coach point of view.
Alison Jones: And I love the point you make about the synergy that actually the organizations, ambitions, goals, purposes are fulfilled when the individual’s goals and purposes are met and that there is no conflict there, actually, that these two things work perfectly together, because I think that still isn’t fully understood.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, it’s a win win. So it’s a win for the people, just to absolutely drive that point home, it’s a win for the people in the organization because, all of a sudden they can be themselves, they can show up in a way that is human, humanizing the workplace, you know and then for the organization, so there’s a win on so many fronts there.
And then for the organization, of course, they get that, there’s that engagement and that extra sort of flair of creativity and innovation that feeds through. So yes.
Alison Jones: …effort that is so often missing.
Tiffany Gaskell: That’s it. Yes, exactly.
Alison Jones: Yes. So I’m reminded of that wonderful thing about, you know, what if we, I think it was originally train, but it stands with coaching. So what if we coach our people and they leave, or what if we don’t coach them and they stay?
Tiffany Gaskell: Exactly. Exactly. And yes, I think that is the thing that organizations are grappling with. They are grappling with this new world of how to approach their relationship with their people. And, that’s one of the things we reflect in the book, so we’ve got a new take on Maslow’s hierarchy of human needs.
So we’re saying that there’s a secondary emergence of secondary needs and that’s all around meaning and purpose. And you know, that higher aspirations that people have.
Alison Jones: I was going to ask you about that. So that’s so interesting. And that feels very much sort of, they talk about Gen Z and that kind of the different contract that people have these days, their expectations of a career. What else is reflected in this new edition that’s changed over the last, how many years since the previous edition?
Six or seven years. Yes. Yes.
Tiffany Gaskell: Well, I think that you know, because of the shifts from the pandemic it’s going deeper and further and so it is giving more… so with the 2017 edit, we’re really turning it into a ‘how to’ book. So it’s like, there’s masses of activities in there about how to do things.
With the sixth edition, it’s really post pandemic, looking at the world today, thinking about how can we use our collective human ingenuity to rise to the challenges that we face as humanity and, you know, these are really big questions…
Alison Jones: …big questions.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes and really exciting ones as well, because I’ve got this crazy belief myself, which I’ve always had, which is anything’s possible.
And so, yes, it’s, if we can get this knowledge into the hands of as many people as possible, then that will be doing the service that we dream of.
Alison Jones: That’s a wonderful vision. And I’m fully behind you in it. That’s brilliant.
I do want to talk to you about writing as well. So was this, when you worked with John on the 5th edition, was that the first time that you had worked on a book? And just tell me about what you discovered and what was different the next time around.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes. Well, I’ve always loved writing and you know, like I was saying, it’s like having a conversation with him. I think in terms of this latest edition, I don’t know I mean, I’m absolutely positive that lots of other writers have this, but I have that thing at 4am. You know, the sort of the thing where basically I’ve been working on something and it hasn’t quite got to the place where I’m thinking of, then I’ll wake up at 4am and I’ll be like, Oh, this is what I need to do.
And so I always have a pen and notepad by my bed so that I can write it all down. Sometimes in the morning, sometimes it’s a little bit off and I’m like, what was I thinking? but sometimes it’s, you know,
Alison Jones: …seemed so great at 4am.
Tiffany Gaskell: It’s so funny, isn’t it? So sometimes there are gems in there.
So yes, it’s one of those things, but it’s sort of, I heard someone that you were speaking to talking about this, you know, bring what’s sort of in your soul into the world through your writing. And I thought it was such a beautiful thing to say.
And those 4am moments, you know, I really cherish them because I just think, all the distractions aren’t there. And so, you’ve sort of got this cocooned space in which these thoughts come through and I feel like it’s that sort of thing.
Alison Jones: I’m going to ask you a question that occurs to me, particularly because I think four in the morning is a great time for self coaching, generally because you can’t ring your coach up at that point in the morning. But what do you think is the relationship between the practice of coaching and the practice of writing.
Tiffany Gaskell: Mm.
Alison Jones: A leading question, but I’m just interested in how you see those two things. What are the connections?
Tiffany Gaskell: Just say a little bit more about what you’re thinking about it.
Alison Jones: So I’m always really interested in when I’m writing, I often find myself asking myself questions, which I think is a coaching discipline and maybe it’s a coaching habit. I don’t know, but it’s also, so it’s something about finding questions, leaning into that curiosity and noticing what you notice and, you know, writing for yourself helps with that before you start writing for other people.
But there’s also something about the quality of the thinking, the protected space, the ability to cut through to what really matters when we spend so much of our lives dealing with what frankly doesn’t. So yes, it was a very leading question because that’s where I was going with it, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, no, I love what you’re saying there. The thing that I’m thinking about is that you know, so with my writing, what I think about is to think, right, where would I love to be at the end of the day? So a bit of GROW model, I suppose, where would I love to be?
Alison Jones: a bit of your goal.
Tiffany Gaskell: You know, where am I now? What…
Alison Jones: Where am I now?
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, what do I want to do? What are my options to get that kind of thing and then what will I do?
So, I set up my sort of intention, you know, how I’d love it to be. And, like you say, that protected space. So that sort of creates that protected space. And then, I used to kind of try and do everything else at the same time.
But, you don’t have enough head space, do you? I mean, you need sort of like, because I think it’s something about developing one’s thoughts and really going into oneself in a way that, and spending enough time with oneself in order to bring that out, something like that, feels like that,
Alison Jones: and there’s very little opportunity for that in the world, I think,
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes.
Alison Jones: Especially in business.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes. So it’s such a luxury, isn’t it? Yes.
Alison Jones: It is, yes. And it doesn’t always feel like a luxury. It sometimes feels like a burden, but yes, it is, it’s absolutely a luxury.
So I always ask my guests for their best tips. So if somebody’s listening to this and thinking, I’m really grappling with the whole idea of, you know, writing my book, I’m struggling.
What would you tell them?
Tiffany Gaskell: So I would say a couple of things. One is that in the book, we’ve got question bags and there is a self coaching, you talked about self coaching, there is a self coaching at the back. And so I would actually sit down with, you know, your sort of dream of what you’d love it to be and then use that to self coach.
The other thing I’m thinking about is that there’s a little book by Ted Hughes called Poetry in Making. Have you…
Alison Jones: I haven’t read it, no.
Tiffany Gaskell: It’s absolutely fantastic. It’s nice and short.
But what it is, is that in it he says, you know, the thing that sticks with me is, when you’re writing, if you’re bored, your audience is going to be bored.
And so this is where we have to get the essence of ourself into it. And I think it’s very interesting that because it rings true, you know?
Alison Jones: You are the first advocate for your book. Absolutely. You know, if you’re not inspired by this, how on earth do you expect somebody else to be inspired by it? Which it doesn’t always feel the case, but over time it’s got to be something there. . Yes, you’ve really got to care about what you’re writing about and that’s got to come through in the book, hasn’t it? I think it’s one of the big differences between writing a business book, which is intended to change how people think and how they act, to writing a piece of academic research, which might be interesting to four people on the planet, but it’s not really going to sort of make a dent in most people’s lives.
And, but to do that, you need to connect at the emotional level as well.
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, exactly. And I think even more so.
Yes, even more so for business books, because otherwise, you know, it’s sort of dry, isn’t it? And yes,
Alison Jones: We’ve all read those book, we’ve all failed to finish those books. Yes.
I always ask my guests for a recommendation as well. And the Ted Hughes one is fabulous. I’m going to dig that out. But are there any other books that you would recommend if, I mean, obviously Coaching for Performance, but other books that people, perhaps that you’ve read that have inspired you.
Tiffany Gaskell: I mean, the business writer who’s absolutely incredible from my perspective is Michael Lewis. So obviously, you know, I used to be in banking. So he wrote The Big Short and Liar’s Poker. He basically was, you know, when I was in derivatives trading, I couldn’t explain to other people outside of it, what was going on.
And Michael Lewis made it accessible to all grandmothers. I mean, he’s just fantastic. So, fantastic storyteller and of course The Big Short got made into a film. And the seminal moment there is when Margot Robbie is sitting in a bubble bath explaining what a derivative is. And I’m like, yes, unbelievable.
Alison Jones: That’s hilarious. And he was a journalist as well, wasn’t he?
Tiffany Gaskell: Yes, he was. Yes,
Alison Jones: storytelling impulse.
Tiffany Gaskell: banker and he was a journalist.
Alison Jones: Have to, to my shame, I haven’t read any Michael Lewis. I will go and do that. Maybe because I’m terrified that I won’t understand what a derivative is, but maybe that’s why I need to go and read him.
Amazing. Thank you so much.
So, Tiffany, if people want to find out more about you, more about Coaching for Performance, more about your business and everything that you do. Where should they go?
Tiffany Gaskell: So connect with me on LinkedIn, I’d love to hear from you, Tiffany Gaskell. Also Coaching for Performance is available in all good bookshops. And then of course, performanceconsultants.com to check out the work that we’re doing around the world with multinationals.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. I will put those links up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com. Such a pleasure to talk to you today about coaching and writing. I mean, what could be better? Absolutely marvelous. So thank you so much for your time.
Tiffany Gaskell: Thank you so much for having me.
