Episode 43 – Book and Platform with Kelly Pietrangeli

Back in 2012, Kelly Pietrangeli and her friends had a brilliant idea for a book. Project Me was all about helping busy mothers balance their lives with more effective time management, productivity skills and goal-setting, using tools techniques they’d developed for their own lives.

They began to write, but then:

‘It just occurred to me one day, how are we going to get a book deal on this book called Project Me, when we have no website, no social media platform whatsoever, like who are we, you know? We’re just a couple of mothers who are writing this book.’

She persuaded her friends to do it backwards, taking the content they’d written and putting it out on a website. She built a blog, a community and an online programme, and before too long she found herself the focus of a bidding war with several publishers vying to sign her up.

‘That’s what the book has come from, from a book idea into a website, into online programs and coaching, and now full circle.’

Kelly’s story might just transform the way you think about your book and your platform, and how they work together.

LINKS:

Project Me for Busy Mothers: http://myprojectme.com/

Project Me on Pinterest: https://uk.pinterest.com/projectmemother/

Project Me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/myprojectme/

Kelly on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kellyprojectme

The parenting book from Melissa Hood at The Parent Practice: Real Parenting for Real Kids: Enabling Parents to Bring Out the Best in Their Children

You can download my Extraordinary Business Book Kickstart Workbook here: http://extraordinarybusinessbooks.com/kickstart-workbook/ 

Alison: Hello! Welcome to The Extraordinary Business Book Club. Today – this is very exciting – I’m here with Kelly Pietrangeli, who is a parenting expert and she’s founder of Project Me, helping busy women balance their lives. She’s also, and this is really lovely, this is why it’s so exciting, she’s a regular listener to the podcast and got in touch and said, “Hey, I’ve got a story. Want to hear about this?” And she has, she’s got the most amazing, fascinating book journey. Welcome to the show, Kelly.

Kelly:  Thank you very much. It is really exciting to be here. I have to say, this is going to be quite funny when this episode airs because part of my writing ritual of the book that I’m writing right now is that every Tuesday, I call it Sacred Writing Tuesday, and every Tuesday is inked in that I don’t do anything else except work on my book. It’s my writing day. What I do, as part of preparation, is I listen to that week’s podcast. It’s going to be really interesting when this airs, that that’s going to be the one I have to listen to, to inspire me for my writing that day.

Alison: Is there anything you want to say to your future self?

Kelly:  You’re doing great, Kelly. Just keep plugging away.

Alison: I love it. You’re going to listen to that and be like, “Yes! I’m on fire.” That’s brilliant. Of course we’ll come to your top tip later but I would imagine that it’s something involving listening to the podcast every Tuesday or something like that.

Kelly:  You know it.

Alison: Yes. Good, glad to hear it. Tell us a little bit about Project Me for Busy Mothers.

Kelly:  Yeah, so Project Me. Well, Project Me helps busy mothers to find a happier balance. I help mothers set goals that’ll make a real difference to their every day happiness. I also teach productivity and time management skills specifically for mothers because I understand the struggle with the juggle. I’ve got two teenagers myself. In the early days of parenting, when I was deep in the trenches, I found everything so hard. I think a lot of us do.

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Kelly:  I just, I really struggled big time. If you ever would have told me back then that I would be teaching other mothers to have their lives together I would just be laughing in your face – or writing a book about it. Project Me really is about, the book itself is not about my journey or anything like that. The book is a very practical book about how to take any problem that’s going in any area of your life and how to improve things.

But going back, I created my own Project Me when life was really messy and I was really just feeling like my whole life was a hot mess. It wasn’t until I learned to kind of separate out my life into different areas where I could look at things more objectively and see that it wasn’t that everything was a mess. It was just that this area was not going so well and that was having a knock-on effect on these other two areas too. I started to use a life wheel, which life coaches uses sometimes. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen one, Alison.

Alison: Oh, yeah. It’s a really great coaching tool, isn’t it? It helps you just break it down.

Kelly:  Yeah, it’s a really great coaching tool. It kind of looks like a pizza pie divided into different areas. I used to use these to kind of pinpoint which areas of my life could use some focus. Then later on I started creating my own, which had areas on it that really felt relevant to me as a busy mother. I added things like productivity, and time management. I separated out love and family because I felt like this kind of family thing for a mother, you need to kind of separate out your man away from your kids. I added fun and friendships because I realized that, for myself, I could be putting all kinds of attention into other areas of my life but if I’m not seeing my friends enough or if I’m not having enough fun, then everything else can just feel a bit of a slog.

Yeah, it kind of started with this concept of something I was doing honestly just for me; I never thought I was going to be doing this to help anybody else. I ended up doing a parenting skills class with one of your other guests, with Melissa Hood, and Elaine Halligan of The Parent Practice.

Alison: Yes.

Kelly:  That was when my boys were three and six. Now they’re seventeen and fourteen so we’re talking quite a long time ago. I did the parenting skills classes with them and it completely changed the family area of my life.

Alison: That Parent Practice stuff, it’s just pure magic isn’t it? I was working on Melissa’s book, obviously, Real Parenting for Real Kids, and I have to say, just working on the book and getting to read it first transformed our family life. It’s amazing.

Kelly:  It was transformational for us as well. I just always feel so grateful and indebted to the Parent Practice for helping me with that area of my life, which went on to have a positive knock-on effect on the rest of my life as well. It was via The Parent Practice that I heard about a workshop that was happening by a life coach called Frances King. Frances King was running this series of four workshops for mothers, specifically for mothers to help them with kind of balance, and goals, and that sort of thing. I thought, “Yes, I’ve done all these parenting skills classes and enough about the kids. What about me?”

I went along to this with two girlfriends who didn’t know each other. We went along together to these four week workshops and again, it just kind of bumped me up to the next level. It was suddenly getting me to look at things like my time management, and my values, and stop just kind of putting out fires but to look a little bit deeper at what my values are and how I want to be as a mother, and as a woman, and as a wife, and as a daughter, and all the different roles that I play.

When this series of workshops ended, the three of us decided that we would meet up once a month for the sole purpose of continuing on with this to just keep kind of working on ourselves, and kind of coaching each other, and holding each other accountable for the things that we want to do. That was, I think we, yeah, we kicked that off in 2008 and we’ve never missed a month. We’re still doing it even though we-

Alison: I love that.

Kelly:  Some of us have moved to different- Anna lived in Singapore for a while. I was living in Madrid for six-and-a-half years and with the magic of Skype and Google Hangouts, we just carried on. It was in January of 2012 when I was writing out my goals for the year (because we always get together every January and we hash out our goals with each other for the year ahead), it was January of 2012 when I was doing our pre-session work where I was writing down my goals and this idea came to me to write a book called, Project Me. It just came to me in a complete, just epiphany. I excitedly shared my idea with my power posse and we immediately agreed that we were going to write this book together. Each chapter would cover a different key life area of a busy mother’s life. We divided the chapters up between us and we got to work.

Then Anna became very ill with what we thought at the time was a severe form of chronic fatigue syndrome and she had to rest and do nothing more so Susie and I carried on with the book. Then it just occurred to me one day, how are Susie and I going to get a book deal on this book called, Project Me, when we have no website, no social media platform whatsoever, like who are we, kind of thing, you know? We’re just a couple of mothers who are writing this book and I just suddenly lost confidence in the idea. But then it occurred to me, well, we could kind of do things backwards here and set up a website, and take the things that we’ve written so far, the chapters we’ve written so far and turn them into blog posts.

I proposed that idea to Susie, who thought I was crazy. Like, “What, we’re just going to take all this stuff we’ve been working on and just put it for free on a website so anybody can get it? Why would anybody later want to buy a book if it’s already there on the website?” Now I know. Now so many of us know that you can very easily put your content out for free first in blog posts and then on a website and people will later on go and buy a book that condenses it all down in something they can hold in their hands, absolutely.

Alison: Yeah, totally.

Kelly:  Yeah.

Alison: In fact, I couldn’t have put it better. Beautiful. Thank you.

Kelly:  Yeah but really at the time that felt crazy. When we told our friends and family who knew we’d been working on this book that we were doing this, they thought we were crazy as well.

Alison: How did you convince her?

Kelly:  I showed her Marie Forleo’s website. She’s an online business coach out of New York and she’s very much into giving away loads of content for free and then people will come back and they’ll buy whatever you want to serve them because they love your free stuff. Yeah, I ended up doing B-School, which is Marie Forleo’s online business school to learn how to run an online business.

In September 2013 myprojectme.com was launched. It was an immediate hit. We started off by just sending out emails to all of our friends saying if you forward this email on to ten more of your friends, good karma’s coming your way, like one of those chain emails that used to go out telling you that bad things are going to happen if you don’t forward this email on to people. We did the reverse, which was send it out to people and say, “If you send this out to ten friends about the launch of our website and to get them to sign up for our free opt-in, join our mailing list, then good things are coming your way.” It worked because it just, suddenly our mailing list was just, more and more people were joining our mailing list.

Interestingly enough, one of the very first blog posts that we launched with was in the family section. It was a blog post I wrote called, How to Stop Shouting at Your Kids. Dr. Laura Markham, who’s one of the USA’s top parenting experts, she picked up on it. I think I tweeted her. I just had got my Twitter account. I didn’t know at all what I was doing with Twitter and I tweeted her a link to this blog post. She ended up re-tweeting it and putting it on her Facebook page and suddenly our mailing list was at a thousand subscribers immediately, which was really exciting because you read all these courses on how to get your first thousand subscribers and we sort of had it from one tweet.

Alison: That’s amazing.

Kelly:  Yeah. It was really, really fun and exciting. It just kind of snowballed from there. To be honest with you, the idea of the book kind of fell by the wayside. I kind of forgot about the book in just the wake of writing blog posts, and the social media world, and getting my head around what we could be offering people as far as doing an online program, and all that sort of stuff. A few months later Susie came to me and she said, “You know what? I always thought this was going to be a book which had a finite deadline on it. I was going to be working on this book, and then the book was going to be out, and then I could go back to focusing on my business,” which is her yoga business.

She’s a really busy yoga teacher who teaches several classes a day and was squeezing in this Project Me stuff in between her classes. Just the concept of it was bigger than she was ever kind of imagining. It had kind of gone off in a different direction with me just pushing it this way. Very sadly, very reluctantly on both of our parts, she stepped away from Project Me to focus on her business, which was already making money and the more focus she could put on that, the more money she could make on that. Whereas with Project Me it was still, when are we going to make any money, you know?

I carried on, on my own, and again, was not even thinking about the book. I started running an online goal-setting program for mothers and I began doing one-on-one coaching. It was during one of my one-on-one coaching sessions, where I teach how to master your to-do list. It’s a productivity and time management session. I was working with a mum in the UK. I was living in Madrid at the time. I was working with her and at the end of the session she said, “I am going to recommend you to my neighbour. She’s a really busy literary agent and she also has kids. I just know this would help her so much.”

I said, “That would be great. What’s her name?” She said, “Elizabeth Sheinkman.” I said, “Elizabeth Sheinkman? Okay, she’s already on my mailing list and I already know about her because another friend told me about her.” Back when I did that, sent out the ten emails to ten friends, a friend of mine knew Elizabeth and sent out the email to her so she was already on my mailing list and I was already aware of that. This was brilliant. I went on to have my next session with Elizabeth Sheinkman of WME Agency, William Morris, and at the end of our ‘master your to-do list’ session, Elizabeth said to me, “Kelly, there’s a book in this.” I said, “I know there’s a book in this.”

Alison: “It’s funny you should say that…”

Kelly:  It’s funny you should say that. She said, “When can you get over to London and we can have a chat, and get you writing a book proposal, and all of that?” That just got everything going on the book. I flew to London and met with her. I began working on my book proposal last winter. Then she got me to fly to London again where she set up a bunch of meetings with me with top publishers in London, which was just incredible. I remember getting on the plane to fly to London from Madrid and just rehearsing, just, “What am I going to say,” and my pitch, and bringing all of my action sheets, my work sheets from my website, and talking about my programmes, and everything.

I went into that first meeting and they began telling me all about them and loading me up with free books. “Here’s who’s on our imprint,” and “You would have a say in the book cover and in the design,” because they knew I was a graphic designer. They said, “You would have total say, and we can do this kind of binding, and we can do this.” I was like, “Whoa! Wait a second. Are they wooing me?”

Alison: Great.

Kelly:  We went into the next meeting and it was the same thing again. I just pushed my notes to the side and listened to what they had to say. It was so exciting. I was on the biggest high. Elizabeth ended up, you know, there was a bit of a bidding war over the book and who was going to offer the best deal on the table. Elizabeth worked out the best one and it was who I’d really wanted to go with anyway. I just felt such a connection to Amanda Harris from Orion, Orion Spring – it’s an imprint of Orion that Amanda Harris has started and it’s for the best in Non-Fiction, Well Being and Lifestyle books.

Alison: That has just started hasn’t it? It’s a fairly new imprint.

Kelly:  Yeah, so it’s really exciting. Yeah.

Alison: It’s such a great story.

Kelly:  That’s what the book has come from, from a book idea into a website, into online programs and coaching, and now full circle. But you know what? I never would have been in the position that I am to write the book that this is going to be if I had started writing this book back in 2012.

Alison: Yeah.

Kelly:  Because this book is not what it would have been back then when the three of us were writing. I haven’t even used any of the stuff that we were turning into blog posts at the beginning. Now that I’ve worked with mothers, it’s not just about my own experiences. It’s a collective of, now I know the common struggles that mothers have, and how to get them through it, and how to take them from point A to point B, and the tools, and everything that they need. I just wouldn’t have wanted to do it any other way than how it’s come.

Alison: It’s brilliant. It’s so good. There’s so much in there but there’s just a few things that I want to pick out and highlight to people who would just go, “Wow! That’s such an amazing story!” Firstly, it’s the connections thing because… it’s that serendipitous thing, “Oh, I know this person called Elizabeth Sheinkman.” It’s because you’re out there and it’s because you’re reaching out to people and they know people and just the importance of building your network and the role that the book can play in that because people get so excited about a book and about the idea…

Kelly:  Absolutely. That’s another thing I’ve been doing too is all along, from the very beginning when I first had that session with Elizabeth, I have a Monday Motivator newsletter list that I send out to everybody on my mailing list. I sent out this thing, “This is so exciting, like a book publisher wants to meet with me in London.” Then when I came to London I took a picture outside of the first meeting like, “Eek! I’m about to go in.” Everybody’s just been following my journey with this book. It was so great because the response, the emails I got from when I went to London to have all the meetings, of everybody saying how much they want to have this book out in the world and how soon can you get this out there. I was able to take those quotes and everything.

Actually, I’m thinking backwards. No, it was when I hadn’t written the book proposal yet. I was writing the book proposal. I was able to take all of those wonderful things that people wrote and put them in the book proposal saying at the end of it, “And here is what my readers are saying about wanting to have this book.” I basically quoted everybody from the Facebook posts, to the email, and all of that so the publishers were able to see that I’ve already built my tribe. I’ve already got this following and they’re following every step of the way on this book writing.

Alison: Of course for you, there’s no possibility that you won’t write this book now. Even if it wasn’t for the book deal, you’ve got these people just begging for it. It’s great.

Kelly:  Absolutely.

Alison: How motivating is that?

Kelly:  Very motivating.

Alison: Then the other piece is that, just you started with the idea of the book but actually you saw very quickly that the book has got to be part of the bigger thing. It’s got to be part of the movement. I think it’s brilliant that you immediately started building that. It must have been quite a leap of faith, as you say, but you know that it’s now something that got you the attention. The book without the attention is nothing. You wouldn’t have had people fighting over you had you not had the website, the tribe, the following, the proven methodology, people talking about it.

Kelly:  Absolutely. I can see that so clearly now. I’m glad that that’s the route that I went. I have to say that right after I got the book publishing deal, the actual offer on the table, I keep a log in Trello. I don’t know if you know about Trello. Trello is so much better than Post-It notes, by the way.

Alison: I love Trello. I was going to ask you about this.

Kelly:  Whenever I hear people raving about using Post-It notes to outline their book I’m like, “Aargh!”

Alison: Well no, you see I… well, we’ll have that conversation. Go on. Tell me how you do it.

Kelly:  Yeah, we’ll have that conversation definitely. I want to have that conversation. It’s that I’m looking at my Trello board right now, which is titled, My First Book. I decided to call it, My First Book because I have so many other ideas for future books. For MY First Book I’ve just been progress reporting it, just writing down every- just because I want to remember all of this. I put on the 4th of April, 2015, “Had a thirty minute Skype call with Alison Jones. Listened to her podcast and downloaded free PDF of E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber, which inspired me to think of the scalability of my business in five to twenty years. I started a Google Document and began outlining the book.”

Alison: Wow! That’s so cool. That’s where it all started?

Kelly:  Then, the very next day, 5th of April, “Official first day of writing the book. Post a picture on the Project Me Facebook page and on all of my private Facebook groups to rally support and interest. I completed Alison Jones’s Extraordinary Business Book Kickstart” – that was your workbook – “which was very enjoyable and took two hours.”

Alison: That helped did it?

Kelly:  It so helped. I, just this morning, decided to look again at my workbook because it’s an online PDF. I was looking for the printout of it and I was thinking, “Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find it?” Then this morning it dawned on me that I filled it out online and saved it to my computer. I was looking at it this morning and I absolutely love the questions that you were asking. One of the most lightbulb-over-the-head things was – I had so many ideas for this book. I wanted to throw everything and the kitchen sink in it because I have a goal setting program. I also teach women productivity and time management. There’s just so many things I could have written a book about.

Alison: Yeah.

Kelly:  I kind of had this idea of just wanting to put it all in there because this might be my only shot.

Alison: But no.

Kelly:  Then, you know, from listening to your podcasts and many people over and over again saying, “You don’t have to put it all in there. Don’t throw it all in there. It’s not your only shot.” You really got me, in this workbook, to break it down and just start from the beginning. Then I can take them into the next phase in book number two, and in book number three, the next step. This really is a foundation course for mothers to be able to look at the eight different areas that make up their life and figure out what’s not working and what action steps they can take to start improving things. It really, I’ve just gone back to basics and I’m just so confident now, that this is definitely the right book.

Alison: I’m so chuffed that that was so helpful for you. I’ll put that link up on the show notes as well so if anybody wants to download that workbook, it’s free. I should probably put it in as an opt-in more openly on the site because you do sort of have to dig for it at the moment.

Kelly:  You have to dig for it because I, every time I want to tell somebody about it, I can’t find it.

Alison: Right, okay. I hear you. I’ll put it up. All right, good. Before we end, I want to come back to, you mentioned Trello. Now, we can get the gloves off about Post-It notes because I love Post-It notes but I love them at a very early stage. Then, once they’ve done their job, they have to go because they drive me nuts because they fall off, and they stick to my feet, and all that kind of stuff. I think that’s really, tell us- I mean everybody knows I love Post-It notes. I should have shares in them. Tell us why you think they’re evil and how you use Trello instead.

Kelly:  Okay, well everybody knows, all of my clients know that I think Post-It notes are evil. When I work with mothers to master their to-do list, I’m like, “You have got to hide- You have one month where you are not allowed to use a Post-It note for anything. Hide them somewhere so they’re not visible; you won’t just grab one because too often we just write things down on a Post-It note and then our eyes become blind to them.

Alison: Ha!

Kelly:  They’re just stuck to the computer. They’re stuck to the refrigerator. They’re stuck to the back of the phone, whatever. I just think that our eyes don’t see them anymore. By giving people an absolute cold turkey on them, it means that- and to get rid of all the ones that are up. If there are things that belong on your to-do list, you move them into your Trello to-do list. It just means that when everything’s input into Trello, you can bump things up to the top. You can re-prioritize. You don’t have to keep rewriting things.

Alison: In that case, we are totally on the same page. I agree. Post-It notes for to-do lists, useless, yeah.

Kelly:  Yeah, useless. For book outlining, I just found that it was really great to work in Trello because I could just move things around really easily. The same with it, you could with Post-It notes but, yes, they don’t become unstuck and fall on the ground and lose them. But the other thing is I just recently went away to write. I went to Ibiza to stay in a friend’s amazing villa.

Alison: It is beautiful. I saw your guided tour. How gorgeous was that?

Kelly:  That was amazing.

Alison: I had serious writing venue envy.

Kelly:  It’s like a dream come true to me to go away and work on a book. But if that had been- What would I have done if that was all on my office wall? It was just so great to know that I could open up the laptop in Ibiza and there it was. If I wanted to ever go away and just go and write somewhere else ever, I just have my whole book outline right there on my computer. For me, it just makes a lot more sense.

Alison: I have to say, I do love Trello.

Kelly:  Oh, the other thing I love, I have to say one more thing, is that with a Post-It note you can only write so much on the note and then that’s it. Whereas with Trello, you create your card, which is the equivalent of your Post-It note, but you can click on that, open it up, and it opens up a whole new world so you can add links inside to research if it has a story with a certain idea. Instead of having loads of bookmarks, you just take that web page that you were doing the research on and you just insert it into that card on the Trello boards. You can make notes and you can create due dates. You can do all sorts of things with Trello that you can’t do with a standard Post-It note.

Alison: That’s true and I have just found that I can import my, for my publishing side, I can import my production schedules into Trello, which is very, very cool so, yeah. No, I’m a big Trello fan. I kind of see where you’re coming from the Post-Its. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

Kelly:  We will agree to disagree.

Alison: But you know what? There is an episode there somewhere on tools that you can use as a writer and how, isn’t there? That’s a thought for the future.

Kelly:  Yes. Yes.

Alison: But tell me, Kelly, I mean, it’s so great to hear your journey but if you were to distil it down, everything you’ve learned, what would be your one top tip for somebody who’s writing their first business book?

Kelly:  Well, I feel like I’ve already said it, but it really is to get clarity over where you want this book to lead you or to support your business, who exactly you’re writing for. Your Kickstart, your Extraordinary Business Book Kickstart Workbook does exactly that. It just feels like rather than even getting a piece of paper out and trying to just free write it, you may as well just download that book and fill out the form because it’s just questions that get you to really think. That just did it for me.

Alison: Awesome. Thank you. Now you know I always ask people this. Who would you recommend I have as a guest on this show, so someone with something interesting to say about business or business books.

Kelly:  Yeah, I would recommend Denise Duffield-Thomas of luckybitch.com. She’s a money mindset mentor for female online entrepreneurs. I follow her avidly. I love her stuff. She has self published two best selling books. One of them is called Lucky Bitch and the other one’s called Get Rich, Lucky Bitch. I have a bit of a business crush on Denise. I love her business model of having one signature online course and then her books to support her business. I’d love to hear more about how she’s achieved that and how she writes with two young children.

I’m in her Facebook group and that kind of thing but I’ve never actually connected with her on an individual level. I would love to hear more about how she has created this amazingly successful- She’s very candid in her blog posts about how much money she makes. It’s just incredible that she’s able to do it with such integrity. Even the title, Get Rich, Lucky Bitch, she sounds like some kind of a horrible person. She’s so not. She’s absolutely lovely and she gets women to release their money blocks and to realize where they’re stopping money from flowing into their life because of just blocks that they’re giving themselves. I think she’s amazing, yeah.

Alison: Do you know, I’ve heard of her and I know the books. I have to say, I was a bit put off by the title. I didn’t know they were self published because they are, as you said, incredibly successful but I think that’s fascinating. I will certainly get in touch with her and see if we can get your business crush on the show for you.

Kelly:  That’d be amazing.

Alison: If we do, I’ll get back with you and say, “What question would you like me to ask her?”

Kelly:  Thank you.

Alison: Brilliant. How do people find out more about you, Kelly, and more about Project Me?

Kelly:  Well, my website is www.myprojectme.com and when you land on any page on that website, you see my opt-in, which is the Project Me Life Wheel tool. That is the basic starting point for Project Me. It’s the Life Wheel tool I’ve referred to that shows you the eight different areas that make up your life. It’s got prompts in each of those eight life areas to get you thinking about how those areas are flowing for you right now and then that’s your starting point.

Then you go back to the website. There’s a drop-down menu under the blogs section and you can hit any one of those eight life areas to get really actionable, practical advice. I call in experts. One of the experts that I’ve just connected with now is Sherry Bevan, who I found out about from your podcast. You interviewed her and now she’s going to be a resource in my book in the work section. We’re doing a blog post together right now so that’s probably going to be next Monday.

Alison: Fantastic. Sherry’s a force of nature. She’s wonderful.

Kelly:  Yeah, so people can definitely find so much there on myprojectme.com. I’ve also got a really active Facebook page, which is My Project Me, Facebook.com/myprojectme and I’m also on Twitter, Kellyprojectme, and on Pinterest. If you go on the website, all the links are there.

Alison: Fantastic. Well, I’ll put the key links up on the show notes so everybody will be able to find them really easily. Just all the best of luck. I know that you’re kind of right in the midst, right in the kind of the cold phase of your writing journey at the moment so good luck with it. Will you come back on after it’s finished and let us know how you got on?

Kelly:  I would love to. Thank you.

Alison: That would be so cool. Yeah, “Now what I’ve learned is-” Brilliant.

Kelly:  That would be great. Yeah, exactly.

Alison: So much fun talking to you, Kelly. Thank you so much and what an amazing story. Thank you.

Kelly:  Thank you.