‘Ruthlessness exists on a continuum, caring exists on a continuum, and it’s about being in the sweet spots of both of those, not overplaying either one, or underplaying either one.’
Amy Walters Cohen is the author of Ruthlessly Caring: And Other Paradoxical Mindsets Leaders Need to Be Future Fit, which was named overall Business Book of the Year in 2024. It’s based on years of research, which revealed that the key skill for effective leadership in a complex world is the ability to hold in tension five seemingly paradoxical mindsets.
As well as talking me through these, Amy told me about the challenges and rewards of translating her research into a book, including the amount of fidgeting, procrastination and coffee-fetching involved in the early stages.
She also introduced me to the ‘pub test’, which I am shamelessly stealing for all future writing…
Amy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-walters-cohen-b973b953/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
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The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/
Alison Jones: I’m here today with Amy Walters Cohen, who is a Head of Research within one of the largest professional services networks in the world, responsible for delivering rigorous, cutting edge insights into pressing business issues. With nearly 10 years experience working in applied psychology, she’s led an array of research projects in topics such as the future of leadership, digital transformation, organizational culture change, and team performance in a disruptive age.
She’s the author of Ruthlessly Caring: And other paradoxical mindsets leaders need to be future fit, which was the winner, drumroll, of the Business Book Awards Business Book of the Year 2024.
So first of all, congratulations, Amy. How cool is that?
Amy Walters Cohen: Thanks very much. Yes, very cool. Very surreal evening. And yes, just fantastic. Fantastic to have the book recognized in that way.
Alison Jones: And I think historic as well, because you’re the first solo woman author to win the award.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, that made it extra special actually when they announced that on the night. Yes, just to feel like representing women in an area that has, I feel, historically been quite dominated by men and generally the field of business. So I think it’s great just, yes, to represent branching out into those new spaces and representing women doing a good job of non fiction business books.
Alison Jones: And actually, the gender balance on the Business Book Awards it is terrific. I mean, it’s obviously all, you know, independently verified and so on, but you know, it is, we are getting more and more women submitting and more and more women, you know, winning categories and stuff, but it is, it was really, I had a moment when I was sort of watching you on stage receiving the overall award, just thinking, oh, it’s so time for this.
So that was brilliant. Did you have a good night, by the way?
Amy Walters Cohen: Oh yes, it was fantastic and the food was delicious. And yes, was it was really good. Yes, just fantastic night and lovely to be around all those authors and it’s such an interesting crowd and great people.
And great for the book list as well to see all the different books that are on show there.
So I’ve got to help my reading list a huge amount,
Alison Jones: Your to-read pile.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, yes, 100%. Revolting Woman was right up there. It’s like, that is a great title. So that’s first on my hit list.
Alison Jones: It is a great title, and so, I may say, also, is Ruthlessly Caring. I want to come on to that kind of paradoxical thing, but it is, it’s so intriguing. Before we go there, though, I kind of want to know, where did the idea come from? When did you go, do you know what, I need to talk about this sort of paradoxical mindsets.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, and like you said in my introduction my, focus is on applied research and research projects is my day to day bread and butter and unsurprisingly this book came out of a research project that myself and my team were set in 2019 around this exam question of what skills and mindsets the leaders need now to really equip their business and succeed in the future.
So we did a whole big research project, interviews, surveys, lots and lots of literature reviews to map out what the future looks like, what future leaders need to be equipping themselves for and also how to equip themselves. So who’s winning awards for the space, who’s being lauded as future fit, and what is it that’s special about them, and what’s helping them navigate.
And from that research, the five mindsets was part of the findings. We had findings around having an interconnected worldview and the skills that leaders need around ethical judgment, systems thinking, and the mindsets were also a part of something that was common, basically, among leaders who were being recognized as being future fit.
Alison Jones: We should just say for anybody who’s wondering what you’re talking about with the five mindsets, Ruthlessly Caring is only the first of five sort of paradoxes that you have.
So just quickly run us through the five.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, yes, 100%. So what we noticed was a common factor with these future fit leaders was their ability to embrace paradoxes not at an out there organizational level, but an internal identity level. And as you say, the Ruthlessly Caring is one of five paradoxes. The other ones are confidently humble, they need to be politically virtuous, responsibly daring, ambitiously appreciative and ruthlessly caring. So it’s really having that whole package of skills.
And it wasn’t, I should say, that it wasn’t that the leaders we interviewed had all of those skills perfectly mastered but the common theme was that they could embrace paradoxes. And they all had those mindsets emerged as the common themes being demonstrated across the board.
So if you’ve got all of them, you’re well set up.
Alison Jones: Yes, well if you have all of them please, please phone in because we’d love to meet you, yes. There’s a sort of meta capability below that which is that ability to hold these…
…oh, I want you to explain just a little bit about, you talk about how the sort of simplistic way that you might understand this is as a single continuum where you have, you know, ruthless at one end and caring at the other end.
So actually it’s not like that, these are two separate continuums and you have to find the sweet spot in both. So just, and I think that sort of underlying capability was what really struck me about the book. So if you just tell us a little bit more about that.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, and that’s the main thing that I think as humans we sometimes find it quite difficult to get our heads around because we like things to be simple, we like things to be either or and black and white, that’s where our brain defaults to but as you say, the paradoxes are all about embracing two things that seem opposite and yet need to coexist over time for success to occur, and they are independent and as you say, I think often people see it as we’ve got ruthless on one end of the continuum and caring at the other, and it’s…
Alison Jones: which are you?
Amy Walters Cohen: …dialing one up and the other down depending on your situation.
And that’s really the wrong way to look at it. It’s about ruthlessness exists on a continuum, caring exists on a continuum, and it’s about being in the sweet spots of both of those, not overplaying either one, or underplaying either one. And also, embracing both of those situations at certain moments, not just saying, Oh, well in this situation, I need to be a bit more ruthless and, but today I’ll be a bit more caring. Because then you end up with a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde leadership character, which people don’t know where they stand.
So it’s really embracing both and not each sometimes is the key difference.
Alison Jones: And inauthentic as well, because you will have preferences within that. And I thought that was a really important point that you make about, you know, some of this will be more natural to you, feel more comfortable, but actually all of these are available to you.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes. And that’s a question that comes up a lot, actually, when we showcase some of this insight is how do you stay authentic? And all of the leaders interviewed did have… you never felt like you didn’t know where you were or they were a lost soul in their identity. And I think the challenge is that some of these mindset elements, like for me, it’s the political.
I don’t think many people like politics at work or wherever it is, but you need to embrace it in a way that you do get the value of, well, you can either embrace politics or not, for example, but they will be impacting your job and the resources you have access to and your team’s performance or your organization’s performance.
So, it’s finding a way to embrace each element in an authentic way where you truly get the value of doing that rather than just having it as a tick box of something superficially, you know, you need to really get it and really get the value that embracing that would give you. And another tip I sometimes give leaders is looking at the characters in business who you may be, who may trigger some of your values and it’s thinking about, okay, but what is it that they’re doing that’s treading on my values a little bit. And what is it that they do that I maybe miss in my performance? Because I have that reaction to how they’re being, but there will be a performance value in it.
But if you can embrace it in an authentic way that feels right and sits right with you, but just, yes, widens your spectrum of all the different ways of approaching leadership in your tookit.
Alison Jones: It’s such an empowering way of looking at leadership, I think, because actually it’s all about leaning into what you do well, but expanding, continually expanding, your capability to do the things that don’t come so naturally. And yes, I found that really helpful.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, yes, exactly. And it also doesn’t occur in a vacuum. So I think as well, it’s appreciating the very human nature of who we are, and we are all multiple things, it’s just sometimes in certain situations, in certain contexts, different aspects of what you’re capable of being will come out.
So for example, I’ve had some women come to the group and you say, Oh, where would you stand on the Ruthless Caring Continuum? And they make a joke about, well, you should ask my husband or something. And it’s like, it’s a joke, but it is interesting. It’s like, okay, well, what is that in your personality that, for some reason at home, this side of you comes out more, but then when you’re at work, maybe it doesn’t, but what if it did, because it’s obviously in there so how can you draw on those strengths that do exist in different environments is really, really key.
Alison Jones: Yes. So when you did the research project and you identified these five continua, I mean, was that a hypothesis that you were validating or did it just emerge from the ground up or, you know, how did that work?
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, and we had the five mindsets. So we had the different elements mapped out from the data and they’d come out as themes. So the confidently humble, ruthlessly caring, politically virtuous, they were mapped out, but the actual continuums around, okay, but what does too much humility look like? What does not enough humility look like? How is that different from too much confidence and not enough confidence?
That played out a lot later because it felt like, we’d almost just scratched the surface with, we got the concept of the mindsets that seemed to resonate with a huge number of leaders as feeling like, yes, this does feel a representation of why it feels so hard to lead these days.
And then when I researched the book for the next three years, that was when I dug into, okay, but what does confidence look like as a skill? What does the sweet spot involve? How do leaders find themselves off piste being a little too confident or a lot overconfident or not enough?
And I think, I am very passionate about the continuums because I think sometimes when you look at them on the page, you can think, oh, I’d never end up over there. But when you read them, it’s like, you probably will recognize it in things that you do, things you notice others do. So yes, it becomes a lot more familiar territory and easier to creep away from that Goldilocks zone of each one that then you may appreciate for very valid reasons.
Alison Jones: So that process of taking it from the research findings, from the model that you’ve established to a book; what’s involved in that for you?
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes. And it’s a big… it wasn’t really something that I had planned to do when we set out on the research, but it sort of seemed like something I’ve talked about a lot. I thought about doing a PhD and then it was like, no, the book, it seems like there’s something here that people need to say and can delve into in more detail.
Yes, super practical. Seemed to resonate, had a lot of interest around it. So it’s like, well, it’s worth spending the time. But to take it beyond that involved a lot more stories. So I interviewed more leaders but less to extract findings and data and more to extract, okay, well, let’s have a look at this mindset in detail. Let’s see, how has this played out for you in practice? Let’s give me some stories of how this has felt. So yes, involved a lot, a few metaphors playing around with different anecdotes to try and bring it to life so the book feels engaging and interesting to read.
And yes, just mapped out each different chapter that needed to be covered. And there’s a point where you realize how daunting it is because I was like, okay, well if I’ve got these five paradoxes, I need to do a chapter on the mega trends, a chapter on paradox generally. And then all of these five mindsets and each one has a continuum.
I think there’s a moment where I realized how much work this is actually going to take to research every single bit in a huge amount of depth. And it’s just, yes, but staying true to like, well, I’ve got something here that I think is worth saying and will be really valuable. And that was really what keeps me going throughout the book to get it done.
But yes,
Alison Jones: And what did it give you? So a huge amount of work, three years of, you know, translating all that into a book. I tell you, you know, it’s a lot. What did you notice during the process? And has it, and this is such a leading question, I’m not even sorry. Has it sort of changed the way that you communicate and think about the work that you do, you know, using those principles?
Amy Walters Cohen: A hundred percent and I have certain friends that quote extracts of the book back at me when I’m struggling with certain things. They’re like, well, I read here that you should be doing this. So there’s definitely a difference between knowing the theory or what should be best practice and then still getting trapped by different elements but I think learned a huge amount about leadership, about myself personally, about how to stick to things when when it gets tough, how to navigate certain situations and balance having difficult conversations and not taking the easy route out. Because I definitely recognize myself in some of these areas or recognize other leaders that had managed me.
And so I think it’s been really useful just applying and having that breadth of knowledge on it. But it’s, yes, so there’s loads of like little tidbits that I picked up from my reading and apply myself every day.
Alison Jones: It’s such an interesting insight into how the difference between academic writing on the one hand, when you are really looking at, you know, evidence and models and theory. And then what you did basically was shift that into practitioner, applied knowledge. And that changes you as well as changing the experience of the reader, doesn’t it?
Amy Walters Cohen: 100 Percent and it does, I’m always like even in when we do sort of white papers or I’m always keen that they’re practical. I think that’s why I work in the applied research space, because I don’t want something that just sits in a journal shelf and is very accurate and correct and… I want it to be accurate and correct but I want it to be picked up and used and change people’s behavior. That’s the main thing.
And also I think I don’t think I realized how much of it I would feel would apply to me because obviously it’s very much targeted at C suite level leaders, senior level leaders, who have worked in business for 30 years or what not and maybe perhaps become quite set in their ways of how they lead and what’s been rewarded for them and what’s worked for them.
So you kind of think, well, I’m not a C suite leader, so how much could I gain from this? But I think there’s so much of it is just about human experience, human leadership, and you can take from it as much as you will. I definitely wouldn’t, you know, put it on someone who just just started their first management job but I think there’s something in there for everyone in different walks of life.
And it’s actually been picked up quite a lot by school principals and applying it to education And so it’s gone in different directions, but I think it was originally targeted at C suite, but there’s a lot in there for everyone just day to day.
Alison Jones: Sports coaches picking it up as well, actually, yes.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes. Yes. Yes a hundred percent. So yes different different domains. I think it can be applied and used in different ways.
Alison Jones: And that’s wonderful, isn’t it? When you write a book and then suddenly it sort of has a life of its own and it goes beyond what you ever imagined for it and makes new friends and, yes.
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, especially when one goes globaling because that’s the other thing I wasn’t sure how UK centric it was, we did interview leaders from around the world for the initial research and then I think quite a lot of the leaders interviewed in the book I think they’re mainly UK based from from memory.
But I was wondering, like, is there a cultural lens on this like what we perceive as confident in the UK might be very different to what’s perceived as confident in America or different cultures? But actually it’s taken off in Malaysia and India and Canada so that it seems to resonate no matter where you are, but I’d be interested where this Goldilocks zone sits and how that… yes, whether it slightly calibrates different, but the general principle seems to be …
Alison Jones: You are right, and that’s, I think, really important for business books is you have to be focusing on principles, don’t you? Because things move quickly and
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes
Alison Jones: any book worth its salt is going to be sold internationally and ideally translated. So, yes, interesting. But it can’t be such broad principles that they have no earthly use.
Amy Walters Cohen: No, and like it’s an interesting thing there around writing a book because you feel like especially these days as soon as it’s published it’s out of date So you need to be very careful, like the megatrends was actually, we’d done that chapter early on and then I had to redo it.
So again tips for future authors, if you’ve got any chapter, which is very stats heavy do it at the absolute last minute before you publish because things change so much and we had Covid and all these other scenarios that then you need them baked into your book, but then you don’t want them too reliant on it, so that it’s keeps it future proof really, and so that it stays relevant throughout, once you pass that time period.
Alison Jones: And actually, interestingly, some of the most enduring business books are really quite old now. You think about Atomic Habits or Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And they last because they’re based on principles,
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, a hundred percent. Yes, and it’s another good thing, I guess for aspiring authors is, because that’s the dream, ultimately, is to write something that stands the test of time and it becomes almost a classic in leadership, that’ll be incredible.
But I think it is about tuning into those things that are principles, are very human centered things that aren’t so sort of time bound or fads as it were.
Yes, really important to bear in mind.
Alison Jones: I want to ask you about writing as well, Amy. What does that look like for you? I mean, you’ve done a lot of it, I’m sure, in your life, but what’s your routine?
Amy Walters Cohen: Yes, writing’s a funny art and I’m sure many writers will have this experience but there’s always that day when you sat down and you’ve tried your hardest and you’ve written like a sentence and it feels like, Yes, just a rubbish sentence. Oh wow, but I’ve learned that there’s something in that process of sitting down and your brain puzzling over that issue.
That the next day then you come and you write pages and it’s all just like flowing but for some reason there always seems to need to be that initial battle where it just, I guess it’s the writer’s block, but it’s sort of seems to happen very very early on for me, like day one. It’s like writer’s block and then we get through that and and it all flows.
Alison Jones: Not a good start.
Amy Walters Cohen: But I think you have to just not panic and it’s like this is just the process playing out and it’s also very, I think I’m quite disciplined and like this is how much time I’m setting aside to do this task and I’m going to sit down and do it no matter. There might be 10 other things I’d rather be doing and again, it’s just getting through that first discomfort, first fidgeting, sorting your books out, sort of getting your coffee, like, whatever it needs to be, but if you can stick with it and persevere through that, then you get into the flow and get into the zone and then it becomes very enjoyable and you sort of get caught in it and then probably go over the time that you’ve planned.
But I think it’s definitely, you’ve got to, especially to write something like a book, you’ve got to be very, what’s the word? regimented almost with yourself to be like, no, I know this is how I’m going to sit down. I’m going to do it. And I’m going to prioritize doing this because I feel I’ve got something to say on this and it would be useful.
Yes.
Alison Jones: You articulate that so beautifully, that sort of resistance, and I think everybody thinks it’s uniquely them, and they’re kind of uniquely bad at this, but there is that sort of I’d rather do almost anything than…
Amy Walters Cohen: …everything else looks good right now.
Alison Jones: And then once you’re into it, you’re like, Oh, this is amazing, I love writing, me. It’s…
Amy Walters Cohen: yes, yes,
Alison Jones: A good reminder.
Not just you, people. It’s not just you. It’s all of us, Yes. Amazing.
I’m going to ask you, Amy, for your sort of one best tip. You’ve given us loads already, if I’m honest. But if somebody’s sort of at the start of this journey, what’s the one thing that you want them to know as they set out.
Amy Walters Cohen: and it was quite tricky when you said the one best piece of advice, because looking back I was like, oh, there’s loads of things I’d recommend. And I think the most important one is just to stay focused on writing for your reader, not yourself. I think as an author, I’m an English Lit student and you can get very swept up in an idea or the way you want to narrate something or something you want to add in or a story you’d like to add in for personal reasons.
But I think that for keeping that laser focus on, okay, who’s your audience? What are the key messages that they need to get across that’s really paramount. So not being self indulgent in that way.
I read quite a few business books that seem to be quite repetitive or string something out and then repeat it. And I think the reality today is people are very, very time poor. And as an author you need to think about doing them the honor of being respectful of the time that they have invested reading your words. So don’t string it out. Just get to the point. What do they need to say? Make it engaging and get the point across and then move on.
What’s the next thing that gives them, yes, that respect of their time.
Alison Jones: Yes, Yes, it’s so foundational and it sounds sort of obvious when you say it but actually it’s so easy because you have so much knowledge and then you start writing about something and you think, oh and there’s this story and then actually if we’re talking about that, we should mention this. No, stop it. Yes,
Amy Walters Cohen: Just focus. Yes. It’s very tempting to do when you’re in it.
Alison Jones: Yes, and you know so much about the topic and you love it so much. And did you have somebody in mind as you were writing or did you just kind of have a type of person in mind?
Amy Walters Cohen: I think I had a type of person obviously I work a lot with senior leadership teams, so I had a very good idea in my mind of who I’m aiming it for and who I want to read it. And again, it’s things like, how long do you want your book to be? What sort of font, what word count are you aiming for?
Because again, people are time poor, you want them to feel like it’s a manageable thing that they’re picking up. You want to capture their interest. But I think, yes, I think people are generally, you kind of got to write the book you want to read as well. I know that’s a bit of a contradiction to what I just said, but it has got to be fun and engaging and keep people interested no matter who your audience is.
So just because it’s business book audience, it definitely doesn’t mean they want something dry or just because it’s researchy and academic and there’s huge amount of references and research within my book, but it doesn’t mean that that has to be dry and factual, bring out the stories and the human nuggets that people want to read and the little gems that they can take away.
And I always, with my team, I always ask them, Oh, would you repeat that, would you tell that to someone down the pub? That’s the sort of pub test. Is that what’s interesting and what you’re giving the audience?
Alison Jones: The pub test, I love that.
I’ve never had that tip, that’s such a good one, thank you.
I’m also going to ask you, Amy, to recommend us a book. Not Ruthlessly Caring, you can’t do that, sorry. That’s cheating.
Amy Walters Cohen: And again there’s quite a lot that I’d like to recommend. There’s so many fantastic books out there, so it’s also hard to pick just one. The book that I really love, and I’m always interested in the books that stay with you for a very long time. They like fundamentally shift and reframe something in your head.
And I read Real Self Care by Dr. Pooja Lakshmin. It’s, Yes, it just made me rethink the wellbeing and reframe it in my head away from a state, which I can achieve sometimes under optimum conditions, if everything’s going right, then I’ll have good wellbeing. More into a habit and looking at, okay, I sort of like read the book and I need to keep rereading it, but I did an internal review of all the day to day actions and thinking traps that I get into and then sort of looked at, okay, well, what are the workable steps that I can do, like setting boundaries without apologizing, tuning into what your principles are and being intentional about where you’re spending your time.
And what are those early warning signs you get from your body where it’s like, actually, you’re not in a good place, listen and take action to do something differently, rather than thinking, oh I’ll just book a spa day and that will solve everything.
Like, not going to happen, need to change day to day. So it’s just an absolute goldmine of practical wisdom.
Alison Jones: It sounds amazing. I’ve never even heard of it, so I’m going to definitely look that up. That sounds like one that should be on my bedside table. Fantastic.
Amy, what a joy to talk to you. If people want to find out more about you, more about the work that you do, more about the book, where should they go?
Amy Walters Cohen: So the book is very easy, it’s available in lots of retailers on Waterstones, Blackwells, Amazon, WHSmith, there’s lots of places online you can get it.
I’m also trying to get it into the stores, yes, so do go and ask for it. And, Yes…
Alison Jones: …ask a bookseller, grab them by the lapel. Say why do you not have Ruthlessly Caring?
Amy Walters Cohen: Why is this book not physically in the store?
And yes, numerous articles and websites I have done previously, all of which are… probably the easiest way is to follow me on LinkedIn and there you’ll get all the latest news and sort of research pieces that we’re putting out there.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. I’ll put the link to your LinkedIn profile up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com along with the transcript of this conversation, everything. So yes, go there for all of that.
Really, really fascinating, congratulations again. I’m so delighted for you and thanks for your time.
Amy Walters Cohen: Thanks very much for having me on, absolute pleasure talking to you.
