‘ I really like to read other people’s ideas and then add my own ideas… you start with the brainstorming together and say, so what could be in here?’
Petra Molthan-Hill is a professor of Sustainable Management and Education for Sustainable Development at Nottingham Business School, and a prolific academic writer. But when it came to The Handbook of Carbon Management – which was named Change & Sustainability Book of the Year at the Business Book Awards 2024 – she knew she wanted to take a different approach.
She knew this had to be a practical book for anyone, at any level of the organization, and in any size of organization, wanting to make more sustainable decisions. It had to contain not just evidence-based theories, but pragmatic, easy-to-implement solutions grounded in research and real-world impact. And it needed to get out there quickly and start making a difference, because this is a crisis that demands a response and there is literally no time to lose.
So Petra turned to a trusted group of her peers, and between them they created something that is more than the sum of its parts.
In this week’s episode Petra tells me about their collaborative, creative writing process, and the way in which reading and writing more generally can provide some of the most satisfying conversations you’ll ever have, even when there’s noone else in the room.
Petra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petra-molthan-hill-b9909720/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
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Alison Jones: I’m here today with Petra Molthan-Hill, PhD, who is Professor of Sustainable Management and Education for Sustainable Development at Nottingham Business School, Nottingham Trent University in the UK, and Co-chair of the United Nations Principles for Responsible Management Education Working Group on Climate Change and Environment.
She’s an international, multi-award-winning expert in the space and the editor of the Business Student’s Guide to Sustainable Management and of Storytelling for Sustainability in Higher Education: An educator’s handbook. And she’s also one of the authors, one of the many authors, of the Handbook of Carbon Management, which won the Change and Sustainability book category at this year’s Business Book Awards.
So first of all, welcome Petra, it’s great to have you here and congratulations.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes. Thanks so much for having me and thanks very much. Yes. It’s great to be here.
Alison Jones: It’s really good to have you here, and I sort of joke about the fact that, you know, there was a sort of team of authors, but it really is quite a team of authors, isn’t it? Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, it was when I had originally the [00:01:00] idea for the book, I was thinking, oh, it’s such a big book, so much we have to put in, or I have to put in if I would have written on my own. And I have really fantastic colleagues at Nottingham Business School. And I have worked with all of them for a long time. I think with two of them, I have worked for nearly 20 years now.
So it was actually that I said, actually, could we not all do it together? Could we divide the work? Would you be okay to write with me this book? And they were all okay. And yes, and this is how it happened that we had four authors because we are covering a lot of ground in this book and I think it was really important and wanted to do it well as well.
So we had to do a lot of reading, a lot of research, and to do it by yourself, I think it would have been a very, very long process as well.
Alison Jones: I really want to come on to that when we think about the writing side of things, because I think it must have been really fascinating. I can imagine lots of pros of that, but also some complications of that, so I do want to come on to that. But before we do, I want to talk about the topic, which is so huge, as you say, couldn’t be more timely.
[00:02:00] Tell me about the genesis of the book. When you were like, do you know that we need a book in this space? What was the thought process behind that?
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, it was, I think, two things. One was that we worked a lot already with small and medium enterprises and they were often asking for material and we have done this since 2011 approximately and we obviously we have handouts and things like this, but we had the feeling we need something very short for them to actually set up a greenhouse gas management plan in their own organization.
So the first idea was actually how do we do something quite small for small and medium enterprises, how to set up a greenhouse gas management plan. And that was, this was part of it. But then also we realized because of our work with all the organizations, I’ve also worked with the NHS, for example, that people really need easy answers.
A lot of people don’t have much time, especially as you always have your normal work, and then you do this extra and it’s something new. And so I thought it’s really important to get all this information. Like someone can spend only like 10 minutes and then they get some [00:03:00] five high impact solutions, for example.
And they say, Oh Yes, this is actually, I can do this in my work and this is how I can integrate it. So the other side was really, how can I make it possible for any manager, any employee, to pick up the book, spend five minutes on it and have some ideas how to do something.
Alison Jones: Which is such a pragmatic approach. And I’m interested in that because it’s very easy I think when you understand climate change to get quite, I don’t want to say preachy, that’s not quite the right word, but you know, it is such a polarizing topic and I think it’s very easy to make people feel guilty about the fact that they aren’t engaging with it or they, you know, they haven’t got the policies in place and you don’t do that at all.
It is extraordinarily measured and practical and helpful and positive.
Petra Molthan Hill: Oh, this is nice. Thank you very much. Just what I wanted to achieve. Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, no, because I think it’s really important because I think we all of us can do something and I do a lot of training as well. And what one thing I, for example, highlight is always that food waste is one of the high contributors to our [00:04:00] emissions and to change something about food waste, as not to waste so much, it’s not a big lifestyle change, actually, so I’m…
Alison Jones: just means making soup once a week.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, exactly. It’s not a big thing. So I think there are a lot of things people always think about, oh, I have to change so much. It’s so hard. And then they walk off anyway, kind of. And I think there’s a lot of things which are quite easy to integrate into your lifestyle. And I really like to start with these things first and maybe then people get to the other ones later, to the bit harder ones as well later.
Alison Jones: Yes, once they’ve established that, once they’re winning. Yes. And I think that that’s an interesting parallel, isn’t it? Because as as individuals, there’s an awful lot we can do that’s really quite straightforward, that’s going to make a difference, even though we think, well, how can I impact climate change?
But also, I think up till quite recently, maybe even still in some people’s minds, sustainability in business has been seen as a function of big business, you know, people who could afford Chief Sustainability Officers and have got, you know, shareholders to report to and all that kind of stuff.
But actually the [00:05:00] fact that you’re targeting SMEs is really interesting because they are, of course, the massive bulk of businesses. So if you can make some change there, my goodness.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes. Yes. It’s also as, I mean, a part of the book is, really the chapters 11 to 13, especially for SMEs. Everything else is for anybody in any organization. And we kind of said every manager, but even every employee as well, because I think that what really needs to be done is that everybody in any part of the organization is to make the changes they can do.
And this will make a big difference and it’s really when you calculate the numbers at the end, you would get these big changes. Even so, people might think, Oh, if I make this tiny change, what will it achieve? But if you make this change, and this is really things like, for example, if you’re ordering food as if you’re a personal assistant, you are constantly ordering food for meetings and you kind of work to have actually an opt in for meat, for example.
So you say that the normal option is vegetarian, but if people need to have meat, if they want to have meat, we can opt in for [00:06:00] meat. And that this is a big change already from, as if you do this, and there’s research around, is that actually this saves a lot of carbon emissions because people don’t find it too hard to actually stick with a vegetarian diet and just sometimes have meat.
So this is something anybody can achieve. So you can just be, say anyone who orders food in a company and we have some advice for anyone who does this exactly in the book. So therefore it’s really for anybody in any part of the business, really, and an organization as well.
Alison Jones: And you mentioned that thing about looking at the numbers and looking at the impact that those have. And one of the things that really struck me about the book was that you bring together a lot of resources and calculators and things that I had no idea already existed. So I think that that’s really interesting as well, because you’re talking to people who work by quantifying, who need to see results, who need to see, well, what’s the impact of doing that rather than just having a good feeling about it.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, yes, that’s right.
And I think it’s very important. I think it’s really that often I think often there’s some magic or wishful [00:07:00] thinking that if we just do a little bit of this, then this problem will go away. Like I can hear it a lot with carbon storage, for example, which I haven’t covered in the book. I think it’s the only topic which I didn’t cover much in the book because I think it’s not a really good solution.
So because people think, oh yes, this technological carbon storage will solve the problem. But if you calculate it, actually you realize it does actually only achieve about…
…there’s a calculation tool, which I really like to use by MIT and Climate Interactive. And you can put all these solutions in there and it achieves only like 0. 2 degrees overall for the whole world in a reduction. So if you don’t get to this 1. 5 degrees, we want to get to. So I think you need to test your ideas because everyone says, oh yes, let’s invest in these new technologies and they will help us and they will…
yes, yes, exactly. Innovate our way out of it. I think it’s a good way of saying it.
Alison Jones: Yes, which takes the pressure off the focus on actually, well, there’s really simple things we can do right now.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, Yes, Yes.
Alison Jones: How interesting.
And I want to come back, as I said at the beginning, to talking [00:08:00] about how you write this as a team. Because I often talk to people who’ve written as one of two co-authors, but writing as one of four must have been different again. So tell me about just the logistics of that, you know, what was great about it, what was challenging about it, what did you, by the end I bet it was working really well, just as you wrote the last chapters,
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, no, I think how we did it was actually that we did first of all, we discussed what needs to be in the book and what chapters would be like, and on the general structure, we did agree on this one. And then we were kind of saying, so, who wants to do which chapter, who like which topic.
So then people were the lead author for a chapter, and it was by choice more or less. And then we paired people up with, because we were four, to have like the second person to work quite closely with. And then, but Fiona and I overall, there was a kind of also working with everybody because for me, it was looking after the content, and that everything has a [00:09:00] similar style, that we have similar structure because we always have these five high impact solutions, for example, in every chapter.
So I was working with everyone on this one, and Fiona was our, because as you can hear, I’m not a native speaker and I had wanted to, Fiona has always for 15 years already read most of my stuff and commented at some point and 15 years ago, I didn’t want to know so much about Habermas because at this time I was writing about Habermas.
And she was reading everything quite carefully, my English is good enough. So I said, you really need to read everything with our English is good enough, because obviously Muhammad is also not a native speaker. So we thought we’d make better sure it is good English as well. So she went through everything as well from this point of view: is this good English? Is this style? And she’s really, very passionate about English language as well. Which is a really good, Yes, really good team. And I think Fiona and I had nearly daily conversations for a year. I think it was a lot of work.
So, yes, I think it was a nice process at the end.[00:10:00]
Alison Jones: and using people with different expertise does allow you, as you say, to cover more ground. I’m guessing you learned a lot through the process as well. I mean, obviously you’re a huge expert in this, but also, you’ve got these people at the adjacencies of your expertise, haven’t you?
Petra Molthan Hill: Definitely and also reflecting on, I really like to actually read people, other people’s ideas and then add my own ideas. Because often when you sit in front of a white paper and you think, okay, so how do I want to write this now? You don’t have any idea, or sometimes I don’t have any idea, but the moment someone else has written something or you even start with the brainstorming together and say, so what could be in here?
Then suddenly you, my colleagues said it also, they were off. So they had 15 minutes of brainstorming and then…
Alison Jones: It’s almost like improv, isn’t it? It’s the build. It’s the, you know, the offer and the build and you create this lovely sort of energy that’s more than the sum of the parts.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes. Yes. No. Yes. And I loved also the ideas. And also, obviously we had also debates and so [00:11:00] I like this style more and I like this more. Then we had to discuss and agree on something, but also this, I think I find, I really like open discussions because I think it’s really important because you can see then that, oh yes, actually this does work better than my idea originally.
So therefore I think it’s really important.
Alison Jones: Now, you see, you’re being really noble and generous. Were there any actual stand up rows? Did anybody walk out of the room at any point?
Petra Molthan Hill: No, I think nobody did run out of the room, but I think there were some parts where people said, ah, you are just…
Alison Jones: Yes. You’re all still talking, right?
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, we are still actually, we have a really nice, because on the book, we made a micro credentials, which was mainly Fiona and me, but we had to have a nice video in every scene, which is the four of us on the sofa. So we have a sofa discussion where we all give our expertise to the topic in the micro credential.
And it was lovely because it was based on all these different experiences and knowledge we bring to the table. So we are in very good terms still.[00:12:00]
Alison Jones: Yes. That’s good to hear. I’m glad you survived.
And thinking about it more individually, I mean, obviously writing is something you’ve had to do all your professional life. How was this different?
And well, okay, back up a bit. How do you feel about writing, especially writing in English?
Petra Molthan Hill: I love writing, I have to say because I also didn’t think that I would like it so much. But because the first book I did, which was Sustained Management: A guide for faculty, I did because I didn’t have the book on the book market, so I wanted to have something which didn’t exist. So I had…
Alison Jones: got to write it.
Petra Molthan Hill: Actually.
Yes, so, and obviously back then I thought I would not like this, but because I did it, because back then I suddenly, I really enjoy this. It’s really something nice. And I think now as, especially, I mean, what I find sometimes hard is when you write in between all the other commitments you have as a professor. But somehow it’s funny with the book, that sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday, I say, Oh, now I can really write for several hours.
It’s funny.
Alison Jones: going [00:13:00] treat myself to a writing session.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, and obviously my family suffered a little bit, but I felt like, Oh, it’s really nice to have this whole day and nobody will disturb me and I can just write.
Alison Jones: Yes. So as an academic, where you, especially when you’re teaching a lot of the time, I suppose it becomes a space where you can lean into your own interests and expertise and focus on your stuff rather than having to teach to the curriculum or to respond to students inane questions.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, and also I think I sometimes come in this flow that three hours are passing by and I don’t realize it because I really enjoy it so much. I think it’s from the, so I often think that when I retire, I might just do the writing and I picture myself then going for a nice walk, getting ideas and then sitting down at the desk and writing.
So therefore it is, I think, something I like maybe the most about my job kind of, so.
Alison Jones: Did you find, because obviously you’ve written for academics, for students a lot, was it different [00:14:00] writing for… I mean, obviously you’ve got this really ambitious target of writing for every employee at every level in an organization, which you know, it’s not an easy ask, is it? How did you execute that?
Or how did you approach it differently?
Petra Molthan Hill: I think for me it was important to, but I think I have quite a lot of experience on this as well, because a lot of people don’t like this academic style. And I think I did need to find a tone which was actually kind of very approachable, but at the same time, I don’t believe in not having any facts.
So I don’t like the style where you just put something into the world and it’s not really… so I think I tried, I think, to get this balance right, to talk in a way that everybody can read it and doesn’t sound too academic. But still it is supported by evidence and by research. I think this was a bit of a challenge for this book, but I hope that we have achieved it well, so that it reads easy but still people have to think there’s substance behind it as well.
Alison Jones: Yes, I think it is a really difficult balance. I think you’ve done it really well. It’s very, very practical.
Petra Molthan Hill: Okay, thanks.
Alison Jones: Yes, [00:15:00] no, it feels very readable. Brilliant.
I always ask my guests for their top tip. Now, very few people will be in your position and frankly, a lot of people will be grinding their teeth listening to you saying about how marvellous it is to sit down and write because that’s not their experience.
But I guess, if you can think back to sort of starting off on a book sized project, what tip would you give somebody who’s just at the start of the journey?
Petra Molthan Hill: I think it’s to write about something you really are passionate about, and where you really want to communicate something to people. So if you have the feeling, okay I want to tell people this, but also I’d like to do the research around it, because I think you need to have a bit of expertise on the topic as well, but for me, it’s the two parts. I really enjoy reading all this new information because often I read new information for a book as well. But then bringing it across in a way I would like to bring it across. So I think these two parts are really important.
And then if you enjoy this part, if you enjoy reading yourself [00:16:00] and maybe summarizing it for someone else, I think this is a good starting point and so just to do this bit first of all, read something and summarize it for somebody you find important.
Alison Jones: That’s such an interesting, so let’s just lean into that a minute because in a sense, there’s you’ve got an input and an output and in the middle there’s the, here the magic happens, you know. So, you’re taking stuff in and then you’re transmuting it in some way and then you’re putting stuff out. What is happening in that black box, do you think? You’re not just summarising, it’s more than that, isn’t it? ,
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, I think summarizing is the first step. I think summarizing is to learn how to deal with it, but I think then the moment you summarize, you suddenly connect as well. You are saying, Oh yes, I know something else which was similar, or I know something which is contradicting it, or actually, I have a different idea myself.
So I think you start, so I mean for me it was like, because I mean obviously I started my first writing with my PhD and the funniest thing with my PhD, I [00:17:00] had to pay, as I had a scholarship for my PhD, which was very lucky because I could work all day on my PhD at the beginning, and I had the feeling at the end of the day that I had met like 50 people all day. I didn’t meet anybody. I was sitting in my little office. My husband was away for work. We didn’t have kids yet. So I didn’t, there was nobody, but there was all these voices from all these articles and everything. And at the end of the day, I had the feeling I had a really decent conversation with loads of people.
And I had something on my paper as well. So I had something written as well. I really, I think this is how I feel about this writing process that I have the feeling all these people, all these authors are talking to me and then I talk with them and then something comes out of it.
Alison Jones: That’s such a beautiful image. I’m reminded of, there’s a lovely quote by Neil Gaiman, I think it is, it says, books are a uniquely portable kind of magic. And it’s almost that sense that it captures somebody’s mind and allows you to have that because you’re co-creating, aren’t you, when you’re reading.
You’re [00:18:00] bringing, as you say, your connections, your ideas, your sense of what matters, and your sense of what this could mean in your domain. And you’re bringing all that to what the person originally wrote.
That’s such a lovely image. Love that. I’m not sure, I think we went from a tip into sort of the philosophy of reading, but that’s fine.
We’re here for that.
Petra Molthan Hill: Sorry about that.
Alison Jones: Maybe we should have that as a standing agenda point on the podcast.
But another standing agenda point is to ask my guests for a book recommendation. So you’re not allowed to recommend your own, sorry, I think we’ve done that. But what book have you read recently, or do you keep coming back to that you think people should read if they haven’t?
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, I hope you don’t mind if I have two because I…
Alison Jones: you won’t be the first.
Petra Molthan Hill: Because I think for, as I’m saying this because I’m really passionate about the topic of climate change and how to address it. So what I really find very fascinating is, can I actually show it?
Alison Jones: Yes, you can show it. It won’t mean anything to anybody listening, but we can see it beautifully on the [00:19:00] video.
Petra Molthan Hill: It’s Climate Change Coaching by Charly Cox and Sarah Flynn because I think there’s a lot of what needs done besides knowing all these things is what do people do with their emotions and people are sometimes frightened, sometimes the opposite, but also they are very active, but then they get depressed or something.
Alison Jones: And I think this climate coaching aspect is so important and I think they have written an excellent book about it. So I think this is one I would recommend Yes,
That’s such an interesting angle. And it’s actually something that you address in the book as well, isn’t it? In terms of, you know, you give people resources for advocacy, but also resources for managing, as you say, the sense that something must be done…
Petra Molthan Hill: yes, yes.
Alison Jones: …purposeful action.
Yes. Brilliant. Thank you. And the other one?
Petra Molthan Hill: And the other one is this one actually, Speed and Scale and this is by John Doerr. And what I find really great about Speed and Scale is that John Doerr has actually tried to calculate everything. So he kind of says how much, so this is what we have to save, this is how, and then he has broken it into, and he has calculated [00:20:00] every single recommendation he gives, so that it’s very, very realistic.
You might not agree with his recommendation, and so, but I think that someone has actually tried to calculate everything. I think it’s amazing and it’s needed really. So as even if people don’t agree with him, just take it as a starting point and say, okay, but I do this one now, but this will achieve this amount of tons of carbon dioxide reduction. So as the people really start to do this on a kind of, yes, measurable level as well.
So I would recommend this for the other side.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. So really data-driven decision making. Yes. Fantastic.
Great recommendations. Thank you. Anymore? No, no, no. Stop. Stop there.
Petra Molthan Hill: I could go on actually.
Alison Jones: No, I know.
Petra Molthan Hill: I love books.
Alison Jones: I get lots of feedback saying, you know, love the podcast. Could you stop with the to-be-read pile? Because it’s quite big enough. Thank you. Sorry, not sorry.
Petra, if you want to find out more about the book, more about the work that you do, more about the rest of the team, where should they go?[00:21:00]
Petra Molthan Hill: I think the first thing would be LinkedIn for me, kind of to go to LinkedIn.
And then, I also, what I really would like to highlight is that we have a free online course, which Fiona and I have made, as Fiona is one of the authors, which is on Future Learn, which I think I would like to share as well, because it’s obviously maybe easier for some people if they can just watch something then to have to read a book or they can do it together with a book, obviously.
And, and then also we have done a micro credential, which I mentioned that we were all sitting on the sofa and discussing things there. And this is part of the micro credential and this is actually using the book and building on the book, but going deeper.
So it’s like about 10 hours on each of the topics there as well.
So if people want to go deeper, that might be really nice to take the micro credential.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. Is there a URL for that?
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, it’s also on FutureLearn. So we work with the platform FutureLearn. So I will give you the links for both courses.
One, as I say, it’s free. If you do it within three weeks, then you have to pay. But [00:22:00] if you do it within three weeks, you don’t have to pay.
The other one is that you have to pay for it, but I think it’s worth the money. But obviously Fiona and I are the designers of it. And obviously yes, we thought it was, and we have lots of interviews as well. So we have what we have as case studies in the book, we have as interviews in the micro credentials, so it goes a bit deeper into everything.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. Well, I will put the links, both of those links up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com. So if you’re sitting there poised with your pen and pencil, sorry, but you’re going to have to go to the website and you can see them there, along with the transcript of this conversation and the link to Petra’s LinkedIn bio and all the rest of it.
So interesting talking to you today.
Congratulations again on the win. I mean, just fantastic to see such an important book being recognized at the Business Book Awards this year. So yes.
Petra Molthan Hill: Yes, this was great. And thanks so much for the nice talk. Yes. Thanks so much.
Alison Jones: Great to talk to you. Thank you so much.
Petra Molthan Hill: Thank you.
