Leslie Grandy always wanted to be ‘creative’, but after discovering that she ‘sucked’ as a child at piano, painting, drama, dancing and so on she decided (to the relief of her teachers) that it simply wasn’t for her.
Until she realized, in her corporate career working with visionary leaders like Steve Jobs, that creativity can also be defined as ‘the ability to solve problems in novel ways’. And now she helps organizations – from major brands like Starbucks to early-stage ventures – navigate the challenges of innovation. Creativity, it turns out, is not an inbuilt talent reserved for the select few, but a practical skill that anyone can develop with the right mindset and tools.
And that’s exactly what she provides in her book Creative Velocity: simple, everyday techniques for building creative confidence. She also tackles the role of generative AI, inviting us to see it as a partner that can expand our creative thinking, provided we bring structure and discernment to the process.
Leslie also discovered she could have filled a book with what she didn’t know about publishing a book, and shares her insights from that journey too.
Funny, inspiring, practical, unmissable.
Leslie’s site: http://creative-velocity.com/
Leslie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leslie-grandy/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/
Alison Jones: I’m here today with Leslie Grandy, who is a seasoned global product executive and board advisor, founder of The Product Guild. She guides early-stage ventures and major corporations, including Starbucks, Oracle Power, Red Robin Gourmet Burgers, on innovation and new product development.
And she’s the author of Creative Velocity: Propelling breakthrough ideas in the age of generative AI, which is a cracking title, by the way.
So, welcome to the show.
Leslie Grandy: Cracking is good. I don’t have all my British idioms, but I think cracking is good.
Alison Jones: It is good. Yes, we like it. We like it a lot.
So first of all, welcome to the show. Good to see you. Secondly, congratulations on Creative Velocity, which is coming out pretty much as speak.
Leslie Grandy: I really appreciate it. It’s exciting to have my first book out in the world in a few weeks.
Alison Jones: Yes. Well, I think by the time this comes out to the world, it will be pretty much around launch time in May, 2025.
So, I just want to sort of take you right back to the beginning when it was just a twinkle in your eye. Where did that title Creative Velocity come from? Why does it matter?
Leslie Grandy: Oh, it’s such an interesting story and it connects a little bit to my understanding as a new author of how you even title a book and why title is important. And it was not the original title of the book when I submitted my book proposal. I realized in the process that the publisher thinks of the title as a part of the project once they acquire the book.
And so, right after I started, my acquisitions editor said, we need to come up with a title. And I said, but I have a title. She’s like, no, that’s not how this works. We have to work together to come up with a title that we think is really important, and we have a group of people that meet once a week and we review titles, and usually this takes months and months and months for us to all settle on something that we agree on and that we like.
And I was like, okay. She said, I have the meeting next week. I want you to give me four or five names you think you might consider and I’ll come up with a bunch and I’m sure they’ll come up with a bunch. And then we’ll keep having this conversation over the course of your writing the book.
And we didn’t actually, one of my ideas stuck and the title really came from the idea that I think creative velocity emerges when one has creative self-efficacy or confidence. You are able to sort of turn the spigot on and you’re able to generate original ideas that are valuable and meaningful to people, but you’re also able to do it because you know how to remove the barriers to creative thinking.
You know how to think about inspiring yourself when you need to, and you know the tools that you have at hand to activate your creative thinking.
Alison Jones: You are not just sitting there waiting for inspiration.
Leslie Grandy: Right, creative velocity means that it’s something you can actually achieve by being thoughtful about all of those elements that go into creative thinking.
And once that happens, you’re able to sort of turn the faucet on and maybe not all the ideas that come pouring through are valuable, but it’s through that process that you find the valuable ones because you don’t limit your thinking and you enhance the exploration of the idea by keeping an open mind as long as possible.
And so once you have all of the traits of a creative thinker and are able to really inspire yourself by knowing what your triggers are, then you can really achieve creative velocity, which is a uniquely human trait, especially in this age of AI.
And so putting AI in the title was really as a counterpoint to the idea that humans have to be able to achieve creative velocity with or without AI, but there are ways that maybe you can accelerate even what you have by using AI. And so the title was really meant to put the thought process of a human ahead of the subtitle, which really raises the idea that generative AI can be a collaborator, a co-creator, and an accelerant, a catalyst for your creativity.
Alison Jones: And I want to come back to that because I think the AI aspect is so interesting and it’s such a thoughtful and positive way of seeing AI as a sort of helper. But, you know, not delegating your creativity to it. But coming back to the idea of creativity for a minute, one thing I loved about the book is it’s really practical. There’s really loads of sort of tactics in there and exercises to try and so on.
But you also talk about just the whole concept of creativity and how we mystify it, and we sort of say, oh, you know, I’m not very creative or this person’s terribly creative, and I know that you saw sort of art as being the one true expression of creativity, and there’ll be people who are going, I’m not very creative, so just, you know, give them a shakeup.
Leslie Grandy: Yes, as it turns out I wanted to be a creative person, and I thought as a child and as a teenager and as an adolescent, all through my youth, that I would find my medium that that was what it took to be creative. Are you a painter? Are you a singer? Are you a dramatist? Are you an actor? Anything, a musician?
I tried them all, my parents were very generous about that, but I stunk at them all. I was just really awful. I mean, like to the point where teachers thought that there was a diminishing return for me coming back. Right. And that…
Alison Jones: I find this very heartening.
Leslie Grandy: I think a lot of people have this experience where they just take a piano lesson with the optimism that they’ll figure it out.
But the talent factor of creativity is one that really overwhelms me, looking for my talent. And I think it wasn’t until later in life that I look back with the help of some amazingly inspirational leaders that I reported to, to realize that you can be creative as a skill, not as a talent. Like talent means that there may be something you’re born with and you’re able to leverage and capitalize, and certainly creativity can emerge from that, but people who don’t have that talent shouldn’t give up.
I think the idea is that there are ways to imagine solutions or invent outcomes that people hadn’t thought of before. And that is creativity, the ability to solve problems in novel ways, to come up with new ideas that people hadn’t considered as a way to tackle a challenge. It’s creativity. I mean, you look at someone like Steve Jobs and you can’t help but say that person was creative, but he wasn’t a painter or a singer.
Or in any way showing or demonstrating a typical talent.
Alison Jones: That reframe of creativity as a skill rather than a talent, I think is absolute genius because talent feels like something you either have or you don’t, as you say. But skills we can work on. So just, I mean, give people a little flavor of the sorts of ways that they can develop that skill in everyday life.
Leslie Grandy: I think there are so many simple ways to do it, and one of the simple ways that I love doing it is the New York Times puzzles. I love keeping my brain active.
Alison Jones: Connections fan.
Leslie Grandy: huge Connections. That is…
Alison Jones: Love it.
Leslie Grandy: …the best training.
Alison Jones: You can sort of feel your brain expanding and you have to think laterally and yes, it’s,
Leslie Grandy: And you also have to think of unconventional connections. The things that always stump me there, and this pattern teaches me something about myself, is when words are part of other words, and all I think about is the surface level similarity. And I go, oh, right, these are all part of words or there there’s a body part in each of these words, like looking inside the word for a word.
Or looking for a connection that is from a word that’s missing in that pair, right? And all of these words connect to this one word is a thing. And so training in my mind to look at these connections truly is a practice I have. I realize that the first solution I have isn’t always the right one in that puzzle. Right?
Alison Jones: Oh, the red herrings are terrible. Yes.
Leslie Grandy: Right, and there’s tricks in there to make you do that, right? They have things that look like they go together because they’re next to each other in the way the puzzle is laid out, and so you have to force yourself to look at different points in the puzzle to find the similarities.
I think those things even the Strands that I do in the New York Times puzzle, it makes you look at things non-linearly because words are not laid out linearly. They’re shuffled in a way. And so I think practical things that really help train your brain away from the typical are really great.
I also, again, anyone can do this. I think traveling and being curious and trying new things, reading books you wouldn’t read. Doing something that isn’t typical with your friends, breaking habits so that your brain has to function at full capacity to learn the activity that you’re doing.
First time I did curling there was nothing else I could think about, or else I wouldn’t do curling. Like, it takes full concentration to do that. And that activity made me think about so many different ways of thinking about a sport that I never thought was a sport. But it’s hard. It’s actually really hard.
And so opening your mind to seeing something from a new perspective like that is also really good practice for creative people.
Alison Jones: And it also, at a very practical level, the more experience you have, the more things you’re trying, the more equipped you are to make those connections, to reframe something in a different way. And that is the heart of creativity in some ways, isn’t it? It’s seeing something in terms of another.
Leslie Grandy: Yes, and I think one of the things that people don’t do is give themselves the time and space during the day to find those connections because they don’t necessarily sit at the conscious level of your brain. A lot of times they’re stored in the back, right. And you don’t know to call them up for value in that moment because they seem unrelated.
But when we’re in a flow state, which is another thing that people can do to really help expand their mind, when you’re in a flow state, you’re able to make those associations a lot more clearly. Your subconscious is more accessible to you because you’re concentrating on the here and now. And so things are available.
So for me, I’m one who finds the flow state in a hot shower, like ideas pop in my head, and connections are made in the shower. Other people do it with a walk in the woods or running a distance.
Alison Jones: Yes, it’s running for me every time. Yes.
Leslie Grandy: Right, and so when you’re in that state and you know you have that capacity to trigger a flow state, that’s another thing that helps creative velocity because you can say, I’m stuck. I’m going to go for a run. Or I’m stuck and I’m going to go do something that makes me feel more present in the moment, and in that maybe it’s doodling, right? I’m just going to scribble some thoughts on a page and not necessarily have them make sense, and then allow my mind to relax into that moment. And so these are all practical things that we can do, but the more that we know, which are our personal triggers, for you running, for me, the shower, whatever, then we know, all right, this is how we’re going to get out of that bind.
This is how we’re going to find something by breaking the pattern that makes us feel stuck.
Alison Jones: I want to talk to you about writing in a moment. I want to come back to AI just now, but for me as well, exploratory writing, that just sort of freeform writing where you’re surfacing stuff without any kind of judgment or attempt to…
Leslie Grandy: …or purpose necessarily.
Alison Jones: Right. You’re just seeing what comes out in response to a prompt.
That’s the sort of thing that you… ‘Of course, of course’. And that’s kind of available to you at any moment in the day, isn’t it? Whereas going for a hot shower might not always be.
But let’s talk about AI for a moment, because it, I think this is the superpower of the book as well, isn’t it? It’s like, okay, you have this innately human stuff, which we’ve always had, and as of the last three, four years or so, you’ve got this astonishing tool at your disposal.
So tell us a little bit about what that means for human creativity.
Leslie Grandy: Well, I think there’s two parts to thinking about AI in the context of human creativity. The first one is reframing the role of AI and you said it at the beginning, as a collaborator, as a co-creator. You were saying the fact that people can look at it as not something they outsource their work to, but something they collaborate on their work with.
And if you reframe that thinking, your approach, your engagement with the machine is going to be much more fruitful because you’re not looking for the answer. You’re looking to explore multiple ideas. You’re looking to lean into the experience of having a sort of a thought partner to really expand your ideas and to go to the fringes of them with knowledge that AI might have, that you don’t.
And so to really reframe AI as a co-conspirator in your creative process, I think really is helpful for people. It makes it less threatening. It’s also kind of a tutor in that regard. So as you learn these methods for creative thinking, you can try them out with AI and see how AI deploys them. I want to use this methodology to solve this problem. Consider this problem and this methodology, how would you approach it?
And then AI can actually show you how it would use the methodology and how it can over time teach you and illustrate its value for exploring ideas. So I think that’s one really core element is how you think of it as an automation tool or an answer machine, or if you think of it as a partner, right?
And I think a lot of people have a dialogue with AI that looks like question and answer, question and answer, question and answer. And if you think of AI as your partner, it’ll be more conversational. It’ll be more exploratory. So that’s kind of the first part is how you think about AI.
I think the second part of it is, you can’t trust AI as the authority and take everything it says without challenging some of the perspective, without asking about why that’s the answer. Because within that, not only will will you find some hallucinations and bias, you also really won’t learn anything about why that’s the answer, right?
And so what you really want to do, I think, is think about these frameworks as tools, sort of creative scaffolding, if you will, for that conversation, which keeps it in bounds, keeps it focused on what you want, but at the same time doesn’t constrain it to a single answer. And so within that, then the human shows up and makes some discernment. That uses discernment to decide what of what came back is actually what I want to iterate on or what’s valuable to me that I want to explore further. And so you’re opening the door for more possibilities and then deciding with your own human capacity, what matters, what’s valuable, what has purpose and meaning to explore.
Alison Jones: And that idea about having your brain constantly engaged, I think is the antidote to most people’s fear about AI, which is that you just, you switch your brain off, you ask and you just copy what it says. So that sense of co-piloting, or rather you piloting and it being a sort of assistant. There is, I see it in my kids, that temptation, I think for people to delegate this, say, I need to do this thing give me an answer.
Leslie Grandy: Right.
Alison Jones: So what’s the best tip you’ve got for maintaining that sense of ownership of this process?
Leslie Grandy: And I think that that’s why I really advocate these structured creative thinking frameworks like SCAMPER, Synectics. There are different methodologies that can be used that really help keep the balance between the speed to get to an answer and the breadth that you need to truly explore the landscape.
Alison Jones: And the intentionality behind it.
Leslie Grandy: Right, and when we write prompts and engineer prompts with specific words, we’re really signaling we want that answer. We really are leaving the question more closed-ended to have a single answer. And these structured creative thinking frameworks, design thinking, all of them, actually don’t have a single answer on purpose.
And so, if you use them, you’re more likely to get more insights back. And maybe you can combine some of those insights. You can ignore some of them, but in the process, your mind is actually being presented with new ideas you hadn’t considered, that ultimately expand the playing field for where your ideas will go.
Alison Jones: It is so energizing.
Let’s talk about writing and also AI. So I mean, I don’t know if when you were doing your terrible piano playing and daubing, and you know, whether you tried to write a screenplay or anything like that. But writing obviously is itself a creative process, so tell me what that looks like for you. What did you enjoy? What frustrated you about it and how did you use AI as a thought partner?
Leslie Grandy: Well, I will say the writing part of it, it was very cathartic. There is something about having ideas, forcibly creating a structure around them and making sure they’re clear to everyone else, it gets you out of your own head. It gets you out of believing that your ideas are meaningful, if you know, you’ve got editors that have to look at it and people you want to endorse it, you really work hard, I think, at making each point matter and clearly and effectively.
So for me, it was very cathartic. Like I had a lot of these ideas swirling in my head, but forcing myself to structure them into something that was meaningful and broadly valuable, was really energizing. I think it really helped me because during the process of even writing the proposal, I didn’t know if there was a, there, there, I didn’t know if I actually had a book in me, like I didn’t know if it would be a book. And so I kept giving my proposal to people and asking them: does this resonate?
And I have to be honest, I was looking for someone to say, this is not a book. Like I didn’t expect it would make it to the finish line as a book, quite frankly. And I looked for people to, not discourage me, but to point out what was missing and to tell me where I might be failing so I could make it better.
And most people just had great suggestions about, well, had you thought about this? Or What about this? And so through the process of it, it just was energizing to watch my idea take form. And so writing the book was actually the most fun for me.
It’s everything else about putting a book together that I had no idea about. That’s the work, that was really the hard part for me. You know, the index, how does an index get made? Who knew? I had no idea how that happens, right? These things were really educational for me. And so even from that, it really fueled my curiosity. I learned so much through this process that it made it enjoyable even when it was hard.
Alison Jones: I think the book production process is fascinating. I think something our authors absolutely love. Yes and of course then you’ve got the marketing process.
Leslie Grandy: Totally. And you…
Alison Jones: …have fun with that.
Leslie Grandy: Yes. And you know, I talk to so many people who want to self-publish and I think ‘Good on you, because there are so many questions you don’t know you’re going to have to answer. There’s so many things you’re going to have to think about.’ And I was just so happy to have a team that brought them to me and said, now we need to do this, and now we need to do that and we need to pick a font style and we need to pick a cover and we need to pick a title and we need to approve the layout. There were just decisions that I, you know, I thought, well, that’s what you do. They’re like, no, this is your book. You have to understand what choices we’re making.
And so I think that it was educational and inspiring and exciting for me to go through all of that. And, you know, AI was a part of it in a couple of different ways, frankly.
I used Perplexity to make sure I was looking for all the research that was relevant because Perplexity was great at bringing back things that were not as easy to find on Google research, there’s a, you know, the list of things in Google was a little daunting. And so I really enjoyed that Perplexity would really point me to the places that I should look and consider. And so, didn’t mean I had to use it, but it just expanded my reach in research than what I could do on a Google search, which I loved. So I thought that was super helpful.
I also use Grammarly and what’s interesting about that is two things. One, my mother was an English professor, and so she corrected my letters home from camp and sent them back to me corrected.
So I look at…
Alison Jones: I love your mother.
Leslie Grandy: I know, I look at Grammarly like it’s my mother incarnated as AI because she, the constant sense of awareness of comma splices and bad sentence construction, run on sentence construction, the things that I would do when I was writing in of stream of consciousness. It was great to be able to just get it out then to kind of Grammarly it up to make sure that it wasn’t a three-sentence sentence, you know, like there was only one sentence and it was broken up in the right places to be three sentences, because that’s how people should read it, and it was helpful to have that.
I will say though, that AI does tend to have a pattern for how sentence construction works and does have a knowable voice, when you see it a lot. And I graded papers at a university, and you could sort of tell the writing style was not that of a 21-year-old, and it did look very machine produced in the formatting of the sentences. And so a lot of times I would ignore the Grammarly suggestion in favor of my own personal voice.
This is how I speak. This seems more authentic to me. I realize that may be a better version of what I’m saying, but what I’m saying isn’t wrong. It’s not a grammar problem, it’s just not necessarily accurate from a business writing perspective. And from that standpoint, I’m like, okay, I’m going to make a couple of those choices that are going to favour my style of writing, my style of speaking. And so there was a little bit of a give and take.
And that kind of goes to that discernment I was talking about earlier. Like it was up to me to discern what advice I took. I could have just accepted everything. And I just never wanted to do that, and that was because I wanted my human voice to still be a part of the structure of the book, right. The storytelling aspect of it shouldn’t sound like it came machine generated, right, with that level of writing accuracy. And then lastly…
Alison Jones: That standardisation, isn’t it, as you say, it just sort of, it boils it down to a kind of correct, but slightly personality free…
Leslie Grandy: And also emotionless in some ways.
Alison Jones: Yes. Which is…
Leslie Grandy: …word choice. Sometimes on word choice we’re intended to convey an emotion that could be kind of smoothed out of it in a grammatical way. And so I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t interested in those kind of corrections.
The last thing I did, which was, you know, you mentioned that I had exercises in the book and that the exercises were ones, that a lot of the ones that I spent time creating just as much as spent writing the book and I figured that people would put them into an AI tool and try to get the answers.
And so I thought I should do that to see what would happen. And I wrote a logic puzzle and it was one of those puzzles where you give 15 simple declarative sentences as facts and then you ask some question like, who lives in the red house?
And people have to do inferences and, you know, do some amount of…
Alison Jones: I started on this and I decided life was too short, I’m afraid.
Leslie Grandy: But it’s helpful because it helps, I think, people sort of connect the dots between things that aren’t said but are implied by the exclusion of what’s said, right? It was never said, the dog lives in this house, but the dog lives next to the cat and the cat can’t live with the fish, right? So you sort of have to make the connections that way.
So I did it and the first time I put it in and I wrote the puzzle, so I knew the answer. It came back with a different answer and it had ignored three facts. Just randomly had ignored three facts and I couldn’t figure out why. So I asked, why did you ignore these facts? What about this, this, and this? And they said, oh, you’re right. It said, you’re right. Let me run it again.
So I did, and it missed two different facts. It chose to drop two different, it just randomly decided to prioritize these facts as less important, maybe trivial to the outcome because they could get to an outcome faster without it. And speed is a part of AI right? Yes.
And so noticing that it opted for speed over accuracy was really in enlightening for me. When I finally gave it the answer that I had concocted, they said, oh, you’re right. And it uses all the facts. And I realized when I said solve the puzzle, I didn’t actually explicitly say, use all of these facts to solve the puzzle.
So it was a real learning experience for me that both in an attempt to do it quickly, it can just decide facts are irrelevant. But also if I didn’t challenge it, I might’ve taken that answer as correct.
Alison Jones: Yes. Fascinating.
I always ask my guests to give me their best tip for somebody starting out on this journey. So, if you’re an author, you’re going to write your first business book, and maybe you are feeling you’re not very creative, or maybe you’re thinking, I wonder if I should be using AI at all, or, you know, is that against the rules?
What would you say?
Leslie Grandy: For me, I think the thing that was the big aha was how much more there is to writing a book than writing the book. I think that when we talked about the title, we talked about you know, working on the cover design, all of those things, I, I wouldn’t have known what I didn’t know going into this.
I would’ve thought writing and I was done. Like, I would’ve thought that was my job, was just to get the final manuscript turned in. And I didn’t realize at the time how many elements, even just going out and getting endorsements for the back cover and for the, you know, inside inner pages, right, the front matter, all of that. I didn’t even know the term front matter.
Like there was terms and there were so many elements of writing this book that I think when people think, oh, it’s so easy to self-publish, I can hit the button on Kindle. You really maybe undersell all the importance of everything that makes a book successful and a great book can sit on the shelf if nobody knows about it.
And so what are the things you do to get people to know about the book? Right. So even championing the book in places I wouldn’t normally go and think about to get new audiences, because I wrote the book to be more general business, not specific to my specific domain. And so I think a lot more goes into making a book successful than writing it.
And I think a lot of first time authors maybe, were like me, and underthink that part of it.
Alison Jones: Yes, and I’ll tell you as well, I mean, you have now been exposed to a lot of the stuff that authors get involved in, but below that again, there’s a whole level of things that the sales team are doing with the reps and with the book trade and with the metadata.
Yes. It is absolutely possible to press publish and there’s your manuscript up on Amazon, but it’s a very different thing to actually publishing a book into the book trade.
Leslie Grandy: And to know all those choices when it’s your first time, like to know, even if I knew I had to do them, how do I know what is a good book cover design? I don’t have the experience of publishing thousands of books to know how the book cover might influence someone’s ability to receive the message or interest in receiving the message, right?
Alison Jones: And it is everything. It’s so important. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Brilliant.
I always ask for a recommendation as well. You can’t recommend your own book, but what are you reading, Leslie? What do you want everybody else to read?
Leslie Grandy: So there’s a book called The Heart of Business written by Hubert Joly. And Hubert Joly was the CEO of Best Buy when I was at Best Buy and was one of the most inspiring CEOs of my career, and I’ve gotten to work with a lot of really inspiring people, like I said, I interviewed with Steve Jobs when I went to work at Apple. And while there’s inspiration in being around someone like that, he was not magnetic, shall we say, and his social skills were not apparent all the time.
But with Hubert he really understood people are the engine of his business, especially a business that dealt with retail stores and customer service in retail stores and things. But he also understood how to motivate employees and how to make employees feel like their mission personally mattered to the bigger mission of the company. And so The Heart of Business to me is really something people overlook who are very much bottom line focused or stock price focused. They really don’t see that the people behind all those numbers are really what drives the numbers.
And so this book to me is really meaningful. And Hubert was kind enough to write an endorsement for my book, which I took so humbly because he is, like I said, he’s been an idol of mine as a leader and I’ve really appreciated his approach while I worked there.
But also, retrospectively in the context of business, he is one among a million before you’d find somebody like him again to work with. And it taught me a whole lot about being a leader and I really recommend that book strongly.
Alison Jones: Wonderful. I didn’t know it, so thank you. Love getting a recommendation for a book that I don’t know.
And finally, Leslie, if people want to find out more about you, more about the work you do, more about Creative Velocity, where should they go?
Leslie Grandy: Yes, my website is creative-velocity.com and on there it’ll show the dates that I’m speaking. It’ll give you a little bit more about the book and who I interviewed for the book, we didn’t talk a lot about this, but there is an interview at the end of every chapter from somebody who I had the pleasure of being inspired by over my career.
But for length I couldn’t publish the whole interview. And so we have extended interviews on the website, as well, for people to see more of that content. As well as access to discounts on my Maven courses so I teach some courses online for problem solving and creative thinking, and so people can learn more about those on the website as well.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. Well, I’ll put that link up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com. That’s a really lovely demonstration as well, by the way, of how you can combine the offline world of the book and the online world of your site and have resources on there and give people a reason to come see what else you do.
That’s a extra bonus tip there. Brilliant. Such a pleasure to talk to you.
Leslie Grandy: It was a pleasure.
Alison Jones: Thank so much for your time.
Leslie Grandy: I really appreciated your questions. I really enjoyed the discussion. Thank you so much.
Alison Jones: You’re so welcome.
