When she started her first job reporting on farming, trying to work out how to move into interior design, Sally Percy had no idea she’d forge such an extraordinarily successful careeer as a business journalist and author. But the lessons she learned in her earliest days – how to write so a five-year-old child could understand, how to write to word count, the sanctity of deadlines, and perhaps most importantly how to ask questions without embarrassment – have stood her in good stead.
That kind of unashamed questioning is a trait also shared by many of the leaders she interviewed for her latest book ‘The Disruptors’, shortlisted for the Business Book Awards.
In this conversation she shares her hard-won lessons for writers, and also reflects on how business and business writing has changed over recent years and where the opportunities for those writing in the space can be found.
Sally’s site: https://www.sallypercy.co.uk/
Sally on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallypercy/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/
Practical Inspiration Publishing YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@piptalking
Alison Jones: I am here today with Sally Percy, who is a business journalist and editor specializing in leadership and management. She’s also a leadership contributor to Forbes.com and a commercial copywriter, speech writer and ghost writer. And, she’s the author of ‘The Disruptors: How 15 successful businesses defied the norm’, ’21st Century Business Icons: The leaders who are changing our world’ and ‘Reach the Top in Finance: The ambitious accountants guide to career success’.
And one of, well, I think you’ve done, you’ve been here before, haven’t you, Sally, but The Disruptors this year is shortlisted for the Business Book Awards.
So let me begin by welcoming you and congratulating you on that.
Sally Percy: Oh, thank you. I’m really excited about that. It’s always really nice to be nominated for an award because it doesn’t tend to happen that often, so I appreciate it.
Alison Jones: It is always an opportunity to just get glammed up, isn’t it, and go along to the awards evening.
Sally Percy: Yes, exactly. Yes. I get a nice dress out and sort of have a glass of Prosecco. It just feels special for the night. Yes, you can’t beat it really.
Alison Jones: I sort of feel we should just do this, you know, every time you publish a book, you should get the Prosecco out, put the frock on, you know, because you’ve earned it, right? All those months of sitting on your own typing.
Sally Percy: Yes, well I think you’re quite right there. There’s just so much work involved writing a book actually, and I think people underestimate it and then of course a lot of people think there’s lots of money in it, which I explain that’s not necessarily the case. So it really is quite a labour of love, generally speaking.
And yes, it’s sort of when you just finish it, send off that manuscript, you sort of, it can almost feel a little bit, you know, deflated and it’s some point, you know, and often in the process you never have that feeling of, wow, I’ve kind of achieved this.
But I did actually have that because actually both The Disruptors and 21st Century Business Icons were in the WH Smith Business book chart.
But so it was really…
Alison Jones: that’s a, that’s a real…
Sally Percy: I felt a sense of, you know, I’ve achieved something when I went to WH Smith and actually saw them on shelves. I think that was probably the moment it did feel quite real. And The Disruptors was actually the Business Book of the Month for WH Smith last September.
So that was really exciting because it had a nice big top shelf all to itself. So, yes, I think there’s, for me actually, that felt like an award in itself, even though I didn’t get to wear a nice dress.
Alison Jones: I think for business book writers, it does not get better than that, does it? That is absolutely brilliant. Yes. Congratulations.
Sally Percy: Thank you.
Alison Jones: And your career, it’s so interesting, Sally, because you really are, you know, absolutely at that nexus of sort of business journalism, business writing and business books. And I’m just really interested as to how, well, how it came about, but also what that means.
What does it mean to look at sort of writing through the lens of business and business through the lens of writing?
Sally Percy: Yes, I mean, it’s quite an interesting, I think, kind of angle. I didn’t really want to be, I originally started off as a farming reporter because when I became a journalist, my husband’s from New Zealand and we were living in New Zealand at the time, so I became a rural reporter and was…
Alison Jones: I did not know that. How interesting.
Sally Percy: Yes, which was a bit odd being a vegetarian from London. But anyway, that’s what I did. And then when I came back to the UK, I really wanted to work on interiors magazines because I was quite into interiors and, you know, Ideal Home, that kind of thing. But when I finished, because although I worked as a journalist, I hadn’t had any proper training. So when I came back to UK I did a journalism course, and when I finished that, I really needed to get a job. And so the first best job that came along, that I kind of quite liked look of, was actually working on Accountancy Magazine. And so that was kind of how I got into business journalism originally.
And so I stayed there and became Editor of Accountancy. And then I left and went freelance and then did The Treasurer Magazine. And so I had a quite strong background in sort of business finance side of things. And since then, I’ve sort of broadened it out and it’s become much more general business.
But I do actually really quite enjoy reading and learning about business and it, I mean, it is very intellectually stimulating. I think probably more intellectually stimulating than writing for an Interiors magazine ultimately, as much as I sort of liked to have done that.
So I think the thing about being a journalist, sort of reading about business and learning about business, I mean, there is so much to learn. Because, you know, there’s so many different sectors out there and the world is like, you know, changing all the time and you are seeing new challenges. Like this year, everyone’s talking about tariffs. Even the previous year everyone’s talking about artificial intelligence. You know, there’s always kind of something new coming along, that you sort of have to get your head around and as I say, intellectually, you know, you’re always having to kind of learn ideas and learn new concepts.
And, I think it kind of gives you a kind of quite a broad perspective on the world, when you are sort of always reading about business. Because of course, it’s international as well, so you’re reading about different countries and how things are done differently and you know, that’s kind of what I really enjoy about it.
And there’s never a dull moment really. Something’s always happening somewhere.
Alison Jones: And at what point, for you particularly, do you go from sort of observing and commenting on the world, to going there’s something really interesting here that I want to write about and become a voice in this discussion rather than simply commenting on it, if you know what I mean?
Sally Percy: I think one of the things maybe that point came to me when I started to edit Edge, the leadership magazine. The magazine of the Institute of Leadership, and I think, that’s kind of maybe where a bit of a crossover came of exactly, not just always writing about it, but actually starting to have opinions on it. And looking at things like what makes a good leader?
And that was kind of one of the themes of ’21st Century Business Icons’, really, looking at what makes a good leader, and I’m a contributor to Forbes on leadership. So in that sense, I suppose that’s where I’m commenting.
I mean, I’m a little, I mean, I do have quite strong views on things. I mean, if I was, if you ask me like, how would I run the country at the moment, there’s plenty of things I could kind of suggest that how I might do things differently from how they are currently being done. And it’s always easy when you’re not the politician.
But I think naturally though as a journalist, there is always, I do always have a tendency still to source other people’s views and kind of bring those together. And I’m always interested to hear what, you know, other people have got interesting, original views on things and, maybe to kind of showcase those views. So I think though, as a journalist, you do inevitably have your own views on things at the same time I’m always kind of quite interested in anything that might sort of challenge a view I have.
Because I think it’s quite easy in life to get stuck into a group thing or, if you always watch or read certain publications, your mind is always being, you know, they might align with your view of the world and then they’re reinforcing your view of the world and then, you know, that’s great, but it’s kind of quite good to actually understand other people’s perspective and views of the world as well, and that other people think about things differently. So I think that’s a good thing about being a journalist, you’re naturally always seeking out different views and I do do that.
Alison Jones: And I can imagine that’s quite double-edged as well as you become an author. There’s the fabulous sort of journalistic superpower of spotting stories and telling stories obviously, and asking questions and that sort of seeing patterns and seeing trends and all that. But there’s also perhaps, I don’t know. I mean, I’m not a journalist, but I can imagine a temptation to curate rather than creating, to sort of to take other people’s, to ask the questions and then offer other people’s answers and other people’s stories.
Did you find a difference between working as a journalist and actually working as an author?
Sally Percy: Yes. I mean, I think probably in my books I do still, you know, do a bit of curation, as you said, because that’s my natural instinct. But I have tried to sort of put my own spin on it and tell the stories. I mean, I think one of the hardest things that I’ve found, perhaps a little bit with my books is, I mean I include Elon Musk. He’s been in both my two recent books. One as an inspiring leader and then one as a disruptor through Tesla. And I think, you know, I mean, there’s no doubt, I think he probably is the most extraordinary person in the world today. And that was certainly the conclusion I came to after all this research that I’d kind of done on him.
Alison Jones: That’s a carefully neutral phrase, isn’t it?
Sally Percy: Yes, it’s carefully neutral, but I mean, he has become a lot more political since I wrote those books. And so you know, sometimes I think maybe there’s a bit of a challenge there, a little bit of you know, when you write something I suppose, and the story moves on and you look back at what you wrote and said would I write the same things perhaps today as I did two years ago?
And I think, you know, that is a bit of a challenge of my books because they’re both, they’re all quite, you know, timely, I suppose, it is not a general book on how to be a great leader, which is…
Alison Jones: mm.
Sally Percy: American evergreen. Both my books are written about, you know, contemporary businesses and contemporary business people.
And of course things shift and they move.
Alison Jones: And reputations change and, mm.
Sally Percy: That actually, that’s kind of one of the things I found most challenging. And then you look back and say, you know, kind of, some people might say, oh, you made Elon Musk sound really brilliant, and then look what he’s done since. But then I think in some ways I would say, well, I’ve profiled him as a businessman, not in his latest, more political endeavors.
And therefore, you know, that was kind of what I focused on. So that’s, I think one of the things I found more challenging. And I think a lot of people who write business books are not necessarily going to be writing about, you know, people in quite the sort of depth that I do. So probably not going to have that issue, but that’s one of the things I found most challenging.
Alison Jones: And you, as well as writing books obviously, and reviewing them and you’re talking to leaders all the time. What trends, what sort of changes and shifts do you see in the business book landscape specifically and I guess business writing more broadly?
Sally Percy: I was actually thinking about this one today and I was thinking to myself, one of the things I see at the moment is people just sort of actually rewriting the same thing and just packaging it differently. And it made me think, you know, maybe we need kind of, you know, I don’t know, there’s lots of books out there on diversity or whatever it is, for example.
And I think, I don’t know, I’m feeling like that perhaps, and it is very difficult to be original in life, I know that, and actually editing a magazine a lot of the time, the same topics will come up, you know, you try not to do the same topic, two issues in a row or whatever. But you know, in the end, you want to do a subject of communication skills, an article on communication skills that are kind of quite timeless and important always. So then a year’s time you might also run another article on communication skills.
And I think to a certain extent with books, that’s the kind of the same. Some topics are really, you know, kind of finding out how to be a good leader or whatever it is, is quite a timeless topic, and there’s lots of people who have a view on that and you can keep revisiting it.
But I think, you know, maybe what I feel is a little bit lacking at the moment is, maybe a bit of original thought or coming at things from some like different angles and maybe that’s what I would like to see a little bit more. I mean, there’s a lot of books out there on people’s own, you know, strategies for success or their own sort of anecdotes. A lot of similar things which overlap each other. But I suppose, you know, trying to come at things from a sort of different angle, that’s actually kind of what I’d like to see as a bit more of a trend.
At the moment I sort of feel like maybe it’s not quite there yet, really, but of course it’s really difficult to be original.
Alison Jones: And it was ever thus. And I’m interested because obviously you as the editor of a magazine, particularly the Edge, where you are looking at these questions of the perennial interest to quite a broad range of leaders.
You’re not in a dissimilar situation to someone like a commissioning editor in a publishing house that publishes business books. The pace is slightly different, you can be a little bit more topical, a little bit more specific, a little bit more kind of reactive to the news agenda of the day when you’re in a magazine, you’ve got to think a bit more kind of principles, long term, you know, because the book’s going to be out a year from now.
It can’t speak to today’s news agenda, but we are both looking for that same, what’s the angle that hasn’t been covered before? Where’s the new connection or new way of seeing perhaps a perennial problem that people haven’t come up with before?
I don’t know, any sort of thoughts on, obviously people listening to this podcast will be publishers, they’ll be editors, but there’ll also be a lot of writers who are coming at a topic and thinking, I don’t know how to say anything different about this. You know, I’m talking about communication skills. There’s a lot that’s been written about this. I’m talking about leadership. What can I say that’s new? Are there ways that people have done this well or advice that you’d give people on that?
Sally Percy: Yes, there was a really good book I read a while ago. I can’t remember what it was. It was about, I think it was about curiosity, asking questions about, and it was something to do with the cat. I can’t remember. It was quite an original book.
Alison Jones: Listeners, we are going to go away and do some research and bring this to you in the show notes.
Sally Percy: Yes, I can’t remember what it was now. I’ll have to Google it. I’ve probably got it in my book pile down there. But, yes, it was kind of, you know, I think it was kind of bringing the concept of a cat into this sort of whatever the topic was, which was either questioning or curiosity, I think.
And yes, I think it’s that kind of thing really. It’s kind of, I don’t know, you know, taking, if you were going to do communication skills, I mean, one of the first things I was ever taught as a journalist is you’ve got to write in such a way that a five-year-old child can understand you.
I mean, this was on a daily newspaper in New Zealand. Now, in the business world, I think, to be quite honest, most 5-year-old children are not going to want to understand what I write, are not going to understand what I write, but at least…
Alison Jones: …not going to care.
Sally Percy: But at least if I still keep that principle of keeping it as simple as possible, that’s kind of, you know, in the back of my mind.
Alison Jones: I often say to authors, if you have like a sort of bright 11-year-old in front of you, and could they understand this, I think it’s a, because you cannot bluff a bright child, you know, they will say so what does that mean? And I think that’s brilliant because it’s so easy to obfuscate as an adult.
And we use big words and we nod wisely. And until you can really explain it in terms that a bright kid can understand, you don’t really understand it yourself. I think.
Sally Percy: No, exactly. No, you don’t really understand it. No and actually people were terrified generally of saying that they don’t understand things in life, usually. I’m not, because I have to do that in my job, I’ll go…
Alison Jones: …that’s the superpower of the journalist, isn’t it? What do you mean by that?
Sally Percy: …asking, I know I sound a bit stupid here, but why is X, Y, and Z? And so I’m quite fearless like that. But I’ve noticed most people aren’t, you know, the last thing most people want in life is for other people to know they don’t know something and they don’t get something.
So I don’t know, I suppose if you were going to do a communication book, maybe it’s like, you know, like maybe bringing that kind of how you would explain it to your child thing or, that’s just something off the top of my head really.
Alison Jones: Mm. And it comes back to that idea about asking better questions, doesn’t it? To get better answers, to ask better questions. I think it always comes back to that curiosity, which is a real journalistic superpower. I love that.
When you’re writing, do you feel, are there different modes? Do you have a kind of journalistic writing versus book writing, or is it just sort of the same thing but at a different scale?
Sally Percy: I think that it’s probably quite similar. Yes, the journalistic, I think it probably is a similar approach, really. I mean, maybe I don’t quote people it depends on how you really look at it, or maybe I don’t quote people as much. I mean, I do have sections in there where I get points of view from people. Mainly, it’s more narrative.
But I would say, yes, probably my style is pretty much the same. I would’ve thought, maybe people might think differently if they’ve read something I’ve written.
Alison Jones: It’s different timescale, isn’t it?
Sally Percy: Yes. See, you know, I mean, I probably wrote both of these in about three/ four-ish months. Both my most recent books in about four months.
And yes, and I would have to like set aside every Saturday to write on it and just focus on that. It is a different, and it’s a bit overwhelming at the start, even for me, and I write thousands of words every week. But at the start when someone says, right, you know, we’ve got 60,000 words we want you to write, and you’ve got nothing on that Word document.
It’s just looking at you and then, you know, you think, oh my gosh, I’ve got to write 60,000 words. And so, yes.
Alison Jones: Where do you start? How do you, how do you even start on that?
Sally Percy: I think you just got to do a chapter at time. I mean, in my books that was fairly easy because they were case studies. So I’d just pick one company and go, right, I’m going to write about Tesla today or whatever it is, and not think about the other 14 case studies I have to do. And if you just break it down, you know, like an elephant, eating an elephant in small chunks is much more manageable and you know, if you sit down and think about, well I’ve got 16 chapters. So I’ve got about 60,000 words. How long does each chapter need to be?
And you set yourself a target for each chapter. And then you just focus on doing that chapter, and then you’ve got one done, and then you do the next one. And then before you know it, you know, you’ve got all your chapters written. That’s how I did it.
Alison Jones: Do you know, it sounds such a almost banal thing to do, to say how long does this chapter need to be? It’s quite mechanistic, but it’s so important, isn’t it? Because otherwise it’s really easy to write a 10,000 word chapter because you don’t know when you’re finished.
Sally Percy: Yes, exactly. Yes and it makes life easier if you do that because that way you don’t over write.
Alison Jones: Yes and I think that’s a real journalistic superpower as well, is knowing how to write to a word target. I think most of us, if we aren’t journalists, that’s not something that comes naturally. So having that sense of what your target is, knowing you can over write a certain amount, but you’re then going to have to cut it back.
I mean, these are just aspects of the craft that there’s, you just have to do them, don’t you? Be aware of them.
Sally Percy: Yes. No, you do, exactly. And yes, it probably does come more naturally to journalists. The other thing I think comes more naturally to journalists is deadlines, actually. I’ve noticed in life that from, you know, a deadline to a journalist, especially if you come from a print journalist background, that’s, it is a really like…
Alison Jones: …sacrosanct, isn’t it?
Sally Percy: Yes, but I’ve realized for most people in life deadlines are just aspirations. But for journalists, you know, a deadline is a serious business for journalists. If you tell a journalist a deadline, that’s what they’re really focused on that. But then in other parts of my life I’m like, oh, well this deadlines due to move, you know, four weeks.
You know? So to a journalist, the idea that deadline just drifts for four weeks is, you know, kind of really quite bizarre to us.
Alison Jones: And that’s why publishers love working with journalists.
Sally Percy: Yes, probably.
Alison Jones: Now I always ask my guests, Sally, for their best tip, and I’m really a little greedy now because you’ve given us absolutely loads of really, really practical tips, which has been brilliant.
But if I said to you, look, what’s your single best tip for somebody who’s just embarking with that blank page when writing their first book, what would it be?
Sally Percy: Oh, that’s quite a tricky one to kind of limit me to one, but can I do more than one? Is that okay?
Alison Jones: As long as they’re really good.
Sally Percy: First of all my tip would be, first of all, is don’t feel too overwhelmed. Like I said, the 60,000 is a bit overwhelming at the start. If you just think of it in small chunks. That’s the way to approach it. Don’t think of the 60,000. Divide it into roughly how many chapters you’re doing. Then you’ll get yourself down to two or 3000 probably, and then that’s just much more manageable. So that’s my first tip.
I think my second one is to have some kind of writing routine. You know, whether it’s every Saturday, every morning, whatever it is, just get into a routine.
Keep the reader in mind when you’re writing. I think that’s really important. Always be thinking about what’s the reader going to be interested in. So that’s one of my top tips.
And my last one is, sources, really make sure you keep a track of all your sources so that you’re not at the end that an editor’s going, oh, where did you get this from? Where did you get that from? You know, add your sources in as you go along. Keep a document of any interesting websites you’ve researched and stuff in case you go back to them.
So really be on top of your sources. That’s my other tip.
Alison Jones: That’s such a great tip, you think you’ll remember. You don’t remember. Yes. Fantastic. Really, really good advice. Thank you.
And I’m going to, I’m really interested in what you’ll say to this one as well. I always ask my guests for a recommendation for a business book. You’re not allowed to recommend your own.
But which business, well, it doesn’t even have to be a business book, but what book would you wish to press into the hand of anybody listening to the podcast?
Sally Percy: I think one of, I’ve got it here actually. This book, Amy Edmondson, ‘ Right Kind of Wrong: How the best teams use failure to succeed’. And actually I was very privileged. I actually got to interview Amy Edmondson about this book. But one of the interesting things, it really explores the topic of failure.
Alison Jones: Mm. And she’s big on psychological safety, isn’t she? That’s her thing
Sally Percy: Yes, she’s also big in psychological safety.
But I was quite interested in failure because I’d always struggled with the concept. Everyone said, oh, you know, you’ve got to fail. You’ve got to fail. And I’d always thought, yes, but some failures are terrible failures. People lose their lives in failures. You know, you have to be a bit careful with encouraging failures.
But she addresses this issue by talking about, you know, things that are intelligent failures and basically not intelligent failures. And so I think this is a really useful book on how to fail effectively.
Alison Jones: Yes. And that’s a really good point, isn’t it? Because failure is not some sort of aspirational state. It’s just what, yes. There’s ways of doing it and ways not.
Sally Percy: Yes. The sensible way to fail. Yes basically. Yes.
Alison Jones: Yes. Great recommendation. Thank you.
So, Sally, if people want to find out more about you, more about your books, more about the work that you do, where should they go?
Sally Percy: Well, I’m on LinkedIn, so I’m always keen to connect with new people on LinkedIn and find out more about them and their stories. Also, I’ve got my own website, sallypercy.co.uk
Alison Jones: Oh, that was nice and succinct. Thank you. I will put those links up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com and thank you so much for your time today. It’s been really, really fascinating talking to you. Good luck in the Business Book Awards and I shall see you on the 10th of September.
Sally Percy: Yes. Looking forward to it. Thank you.
Alison Jones: Thank you. Bye.
Sally Percy: Bye.
