‘At some point, the right to be you ends and your obligation to others begins.’
‘Just be yourself.’ It’s the most uncontroversial advice in the world, right?
Wrong, says Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic. He’s a man who likes to pick fights with universally accepted truths, because of course they’re almost always more nuanced than we like to think.
In his new book Don’t Be Yourself, he points out that unfiltered authenticity is a privilege reserved for the powerful, and it’s not just selfish and a terrible career move for the rest of us but also limits our potential – because we grow by exploring our future possible selves, not just repeating who we’ve always been.
He’s also a man with a nuanced opinion of writing: simultaneously ‘the best way of… actually organizing your thoughts’ and ‘a lonely, slow, and occasionally masochistic pursuit, like knitting, except with more existential dread and less wool.’
I think we can all relate to this.
Tomas’s site: https://drtomas.com/
Tomas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtomaschamorro/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
Alison Jones: So I am here today with Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic, who is the Chief Innovation Officer at Manpower Group, a Professor of Business Psychology at University College London and at Columbia University, a co-founder of Deeper Signals and an associate at Harvard’s Entrepreneurial Finance Lab.
He’s also, more pertinently for this podcast, the author of several books, including the brilliantly titled, ‘Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? And How to Fix It’ and ‘Don’t Be Yourself: Why authenticity is overrated and what to do instead’.
So first of all, welcome Tomas, it’s great to have you here.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Thank you for having me.
Alison Jones: I sort of just want to talk about the title, Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders, but I won’t.
Where did that title come from? Let’s just quickly go there.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Actually, it was my Harvard Business Review editor at the time, Sarah Green Carmichael who, when I wrote the original article that gave birth to the book, which I think came out in 2013, and I was just trying to provide a data-driven antidote to Sheryl Sandberg’s, Lean In. You know, the point was very simply that instead of pointing the finger at women for not leaning in, we should actually point the finger at ourselves for falling for those men who lean in when they don’t have the talent to back it up.
And you know, the article could have been titled Rethinking Leadership or What We Really Know About Good Leadership. But she came up with this provocative title, Why So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders. So, you know, behind the very incompetent man, there’s always a competent woman. In this case it’s her.
And then, I think I pitched that book with the same title or you know, the same kind of argument to HBR Press for five or six years, and they kept on saying, listen. Most of our readers, 85% of our readers are male executives. We can’t publish a book that basically insults them. And I said, don’t worry, you know, the main characteristics of an incompetent man who becomes leader is lack of self-awareness. So they won’t even know.
Alison Jones: I think about those other incompetent men, not me.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: And then anyway, in the end, they decided to publish it. They still went back and forth, should we call it something else? They kept the title. And isn’t it funny that even if you just mention the title, you often get like, ooh, you know, as if the title is heretic, the question cannot be asked.
When in fact, most people are quite happy that somebody is at last asking a question that we’ve all been asking ourselves so many times. Unfortunately, since 2019 when the book came out, we’re still asking the question too many times. So, you know, good for sales of my book, not very good for the world.
Alison Jones: Yes. It’s such a fascinating insight to the backstory though, because you’re dead, right, is that you say that title and it’s immediate reaction, and I can imagine it’s sort of split down gender lines as much anything else as well. But you are the master of the provocative title because that idea about taking on something, you can’t say that, you know, I mean, Don’t Be Yourself, let’s talk about that because authenticity, if anything is sacred in this world. It’s that mantra. Be yourself, be authentic.
I mean, do you just like pick something and fight against it for the sake of it, Tomas, is that what’s going?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: You know, people think that is what goes on, but actually it isn’t. I think, now my editor Kevin Ayers, you know, actually for him, the model is quite simply, if you think about a Venn diagram, or two kind of ovals overlapping, he says the best kind of books kind of have as a reaction that people actually say, I can’t believe somebody is asking this question or saying this. But then simultaneously people say, finally, somebody’s saying this, right?
So I think there is that sweet spot. But on a personal level, I get obsessed with topics where the mainstream or popular view has become so irrational that actually the common sensical or data-driven perspective is heretic. And so the title is provocative, but I think my hope is that if people read the book, they’re going to realize that actually it’s quite ridiculous to tell people that they should not worry about what others think of them. That they should always be true to their values and follow their heart no matter what. That they should bring their whole self to work or that they should always be honest with themselves and others, even with themselves. You know? It’s like actually there’s a lot of nuances and exceptions.
To be sure, you know, in the UK this is less controversial, you know, attacking the authenticity cult is less controversial than, let’s say, in the US, even like in the West Coast it’s more controversial to attack this than in the East Coast and so on.
So there are cultural kind of differences. But you’re absolutely right, I think the authenticity cult is so strong that it does seem like, in fact, as one of the reviewers said, you know, what’s next? I mean, it is like to try to bring down or take down authenticity is almost as crazy as trying to bring down or take down Taylor Swift, which actually when they said is said, why not?
Alison Jones: Well, another book in there.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Exactly. She’s not that talented.
Alison Jones: Okay. We’re not going to go there to talk about polarizing content, but one of the things that you really bring out there, I think, is that we can tend to set up sort of false opposites almost. So when you are saying don’t be authentic in this sort of simplistic way, you aren’t saying be inauthentic. It’s much more nuanced than that.
So what is it you’re saying? Why is that kind of thoughtless authenticity so damaging and what’s, in words of your thing, what to do instead.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Yes, so I think, you know, I’m still an academic at heart and it’s really helpful at times to just start with definitions and also defining something might be helpful, but it’s even more important to explain how something is measured, right? Because otherwise we’re talking about metaphysics, and if we’re talking about something that is so nebulous and elusive that you define it in your way, and I define it in my way, which by the way, would be very much aligned with the authenticity cult, well, that’s how I see it, and that’s how I define it…
Alison Jones: My truth.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Exactly. So there’s a lot of academic research on authenticity that basically derives in just two approaches to making sense of the term. One, is the so-called ‘state authenticity’ approach, which in essence equates authenticity to a subjective feeling, and it basically acknowledges that, you know, the best or maybe the only way to evaluate authenticity is through self reports. So in other words, if you wanted to know how authentic I am right now, you could ask me on a one to ten point scale, how authentic are you?
As we know, that’s not very reliable. And how people see themselves is generally a very inaccurate kind of indicator of how they are. For example, 95% of people in the world think they have a great sense of humor. How many people are actually funny? You know, and I would argue probably the 5% that say they don’t, might actually be funny.
They’re just…
Alison Jones: …a bit more self aware than the rest of them. Yes.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Equally, you know, 95% of people in the world think that there are good people, that they’re creative and so on. So, the better-than-average bias permeates any domain of competence. And I think when it comes to self-reported authenticity, people are a bit like restaurants. You know, when you see a sign that says authentic Mexican cuisine or authentic Chinese, authentic Italian, you can almost certainly assume is not going to be authentic, especially if it has pictures and somebody outside that tells you come in and they have a different accent from where the restaurant is from.
Then there’s a second, much better and productive approach, which is a so-called ‘reputational’ approach, which actually accepts that authenticity is in the eye of the beholder, or if you like the eye of the we-holder. So in other words, you know, if you want to know whether Trump is authentic, there’s no way in actually getting inside the brain and realizing no, Neuralink is not here yet. And there’s no point in trying to ask Melania, because also then who knows what she will tell us and whether we can trust her, but if people attribute trust or consistency or authenticity to him, or at least a certain element of predictability in his actions, then he would be seen more authentic than, let’s say Obama or Hillary or whatever that is.
Well, of course there are problems with that as well. We find authentic people who align with our values. So, you know, whether you think Trump is authentic or not, mostly depends on your political orientation. People who find Obama authentic are basically Democrats. People who find Trump authentic are basically kind of MAGA or Republicans and so on.
And actually when it comes to our relationship with others at work, we find a manager or leader authentic mostly when we can trust them and we can see or feel that they have our best interests at hearts. By the way, people who do that, they’re not imposing or unleashing their uninhibited and un-sensored self to others.
They go to great lengths to exercise their political skills, to engage in strategic kind of self presentation and to display EQ rather than that. So, you know, even the academic kind of area of authenticity is quite, you know, concludes that it’s a very elusive, tricky, complex nuance concept.
When we go to the mainstream view, there’s basically these four mantras that underpin the popular conception. One, you know, always be truthful with yourself, your others as I said in the book, people do it themselves all the time, including by the way, as to how authentic they are.
If you go to a job interview thinking you are the hottest thing since, or the best thing since sliced bread, you’re probably going to get the job. If you go to an interview telling people, well, you know, I actually don’t know how to do this, but hopefully I can learn it. There must be other people more qualified than me, so why should you take a risk? You’re probably not going to get the job.
Also, if you’re always honest to your colleagues, you have to tell your colleagues that they did a really bad job when they are almost depressed because they, you know, bumped the presentation or something. So there’s a lot of nuances there.
The second mantra is always be true to your values no matter what. Sadly, you know, the world is already very tribalized and polarized because we have lost the ability to question our own values. We have lost the ability to entertain that maybe other people’s values have some sense and are kind of rational.
We can’t even sit with somebody at the other side of the political spectrum and have a conversation, which is that even if you look at the recent killing of Charlie Kirk, I don’t align with his politics, but actually what he was mostly doing is trying to have a conversation with people at the other side of the political spectrum.
Third mantra is, you know, don’t worry about what people think of you. Well, you know, I mean, if you’re on the spectrum or a psychopath, then yes, fine. But if you are an individual who wants to display a modicum of emotional and psychological adjustment and maturity, actually you’ll benefit a great deal from knowing how other people see you.
And finally, there’s the whole bring-your-whole-self-to-work mantra. I’ll summarize by saying that, you know, my whole self isn’t even welcomed at home. I mean, people at home are constantly waiting for the day in which I can take certain aspects of myself, maybe not to the office, but far away from home.
So, you know, the real you in the sense of the unfiltered, uninhibited you, is somebody who perhaps four or five people in the world have learned to love or at least tolerate, and usually not for the entire vacation or the entire Christmas lunch. That’s basically the book.
Alison Jones: That’s hilarious. Thank you so much for that. And actually, you say it’s the whole book, but it’s so much more than that because one of the things that you bring out that I thought was fascinating, was the power imbalance with authenticity as well. Is that, and you said, it’s a lovely phrase, something like if you have to nudge people towards being more authentic, it’s a sure sign that they don’t feel safe to do so. And you point out how people like Trump, you know, feel absolutely entitled to to be unfiltered and to sort of, because of the power. So there’s something really interesting in that as well, that I don’t think we talk about enough when we talk about authenticity.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: I know and so there’s something to like, you know, obviously we can’t decide or pick the role models that people pick, right? They, people gravitate towards individuals, usually powerful individuals, even when they are sort of contrarian anti-establishment champions and they pretend to kind of stick it to the man and speak, you know, represent the masses.
But usually we’re seduced by people who have a lot of money, who have a lot of power, and sometimes their behaviors are very misleading because of course, you know. If you are Elon Musk and you have your own social media platform and you are the richest man in the world, minus, you know, a few days in a year or a few weeks in a year and you can indulge in unfiltered behavior and bully people and insult them, et cetera, and you have millions of others, people, and sometimes maybe bots celebrating you. I think it sends the message to people that, oh, you know, I can just be myself and become a, you know. Whatever people think of Elon Musk, he’s probably a genius. I mean, his accomplishments are amazing. He’s also dispositionally unemployable. He could not work for anybody else. So, you know, if you have the talents that Elon Musk has, okay, and you decide to go down the route of running your own business and start a company, fine, do it. And you’re obviously going to have a lot more license to not give a shit about what other people think of you.
But it’s a very, very sort of unlikely road to navigate. You know, the success rate is probably 0.000001. And reality…
Alison Jones: …the happiness rate is pretty low too, isn’t it?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Oh yes, absolutely. And then when you get there, I would still argue that if you are a role model to others, you’re not sending the right messages. You know, it’s like something, same for Javier Milei, you know, the president of Argentina where I come from. Fine, you get elected, you get voted, you are in power. People have hope that you bring change. And then you spend all of your time insulting others, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should, right.
So, yes, so it seems one of the obvious conclusions of the book is that really authenticity, it’s a privilege for the elite. It’s a privilege for, you know, the kind of the small number of individuals who have amassed so much power that they feel that, you know, they’re not accountable for anything.
And of course, with great power comes great responsibility. But a lot of these people feel that their power kind of you know, removes them from having any sense of responsibility. So, you know, it’s unfortunate that they’re also the people that seduce us and captivate our imagination.
And of course, it’s much more interesting to watch a documentary or a movie about Elon Musk or on Elon Musk than one on Angela Merkel. Right? I mean, but that dark side of leadership should not be seen as emblematic of positive or good leadership. Most of the people who actually have a positive impact on others and bring people together, which is a fundamental goal of leadership, they know how to manage themselves. They know how to exercise restrain, and they know how to make others better. And by the way, persuade others of exercising and behaving or conducting themselves in a way that harnesses tolerance, pro-social tendencies and empathies. They know how to make others understand that at some point, the right to be you ends and the obligation, your obligation to others begins.
Alison Jones: One of the things that you are doing brilliantly there, and you’re doing the book, is to force us to take a more nuanced view of things to sort of cut through those captivating slogans and say, well actually this is what the research shows. This is how it’s in practice. This is the, you know, this is what we see happening.
For you as an academic, but also somebody writing such punchy sort of, you know, controversially titled business books, what’s the process for you to take your own insights and the evidence and the work that you do, the research that you do yourself and that you read that others have done, and turn that into stuff that makes us stop in our tracks and change how we think about the world and how we behave?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Well, let me start with, you know, the kind of acknowledgement that that is my hope to have that effect, but actually I’m very realistic about the fact that there’s very few people who actually change their minds. That’s, you know, more and more when I do a trade book or a book that is for a wider audience, I operate under the illusion that maybe, maybe just out there, there’s somebody who picks up the book because the title makes them angry and they say, how can somebody say that? And after reading, it’s like, actually I changed my mind. But you know, that might be like 1% of readers. So…
Alison Jones: …which is not nothing.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Not nothing, but, it’s still something, but I also, maybe more often than not, I give some ammunition for people who were already persuaded, but they need to articulate the argument better, and that’s fair enough. But I think well, I would say the process is almost kind of the reverse.
I start with, I think it was I think, I can’t remember. I think it was William James, yes, the father of pragmatism who said truth is something that happens to an idea, right? So ..
You know, it is funny you ask this question because before doing this book, I thought I should do a book on radical moderation, right? And like how we lost nuance and how basically, most ideas I think, because the brain is not for thinking, it’s for making lazy, quick predictions about things. And in a world that becomes more complex and we’re more attention deprived, we want to, in split seconds say, oh Yes, I trust this person. I don’t, I like this, I don’t, I’m, you know. Taylor Swift comes out and talks about this politician, so now I don’t listen to her anymore, or now I have to vote for the person she endorses and so on.
So it is a real challenge to kind of get people to pay attention to an argument for more than 30 seconds or more than three minutes, or more than three pages.
And I think that’s where, you know, you try to perfect your storytelling. You try to perfect the argument. When I did the first trade book, I remember my publisher said, my editor said, please take a look at some of Malcolm Gladwell’s book or you know, Tim Ferriss or something because you have like 50 ideas in one page. The point is to have 50 pages for one idea, and I still can’t do that.
You know, my books tend to be small because they’re very condensed, because the way I operate is like, people say this, but actually here’s the evidence for that, et cetera. And I want to move very straight quickly to the point. You come to realize that what people remember are anecdotes, what people remember are stories.
Actually I have to say generative AI has been really, really good for unlocking some of that process, right? Before there was generative AI I might have wasted half a day thinking about examples of how somebody moving from London to New York would have to teach themself to become less nuanced and more direct, to seem more authentic.
And now in five seconds, you have 10 examples. If you know what you’re looking for and you know how to take that information and see it as the raw ingredients of creativity or something, it’s a fantastic tool
Alison Jones: That’s such a great example of how to use AI intelligently without delegating the actual thinking and writing to it.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Exactly, exactly. So I think there is a process and I think, you know, I’m still learning and I still try to get better and improve of it. You know, you’ve got to love writing as well. For me…
Alison Jones: …well, let’s talk…
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: …speaking and doing podcasts and all that, but for me, what I love, love the most is me in front of my screen and a blank page and, you know, words. It’s painful because you rewrite, you rewrite, you rewrite. I think, I can’t remember if it was Borges or somebody who said writing is rewriting because that’s what it is. And then it goes through editorial process, reviews, et cetera. But then, the final product is your best way of actually presenting an argument and actually organizing your thoughts.
So it helps. It helps a great deal.
Alison Jones: You are such a great advert for why books matter, not just for readers, but for writers as well. But I did, I mean, I think I snorted tea over my keyboard when I read it because you said in your acknowledgement something about writing, you know, it’s sort of masochistic, like knitting, but with more existential angst and less wool, which was terrific.
But there is a sort of masochistic element in there. Why does it matter? Why is it worthwhile? Why do you stick at it?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Oh, I think, you know, for one it’s somewhat cathartic, right? I think it is like you know, I mean, there is a sense in which even if you’re at a dinner party or you meet somebody at the airport gate or in a bar or in a cafe and you’re talking with them or to them, they can be a sounding board and give you feedback on an idea.
If you, you know, do it repeatedly. I mean, my process really starts with giving talks. I give talks and I try to socialize or proof test ideas, and I see the response I get. But then actually the final product is whatever best way you can formulate that on a piece of paper. Then of course, I try to generate some discussion where there is none.
Of course, ultimately you try to persuade people to see things in a different way. Really, there’s not that much utility in writing a book. I think, you know, it’s like in practical terms, it might be somewhat of a, kind of a, selfish and narcissistic quest. I always say, you know, there are three kind of pleasant or enjoyable moments in the process.
One is when the book gets commissioned because there’s positive feedback on the idea. The other when you finish writing it, and the other is when you unbox it and you kind of open the box and you see it. Then of course you know, you want positive feedback or you want to engage with people in the argument.
And you know, but if you count all of the lonely, lonesome hours that are intertwined between these three moments. I wouldn’t recommend it. You know, it’s hard enough to write a book, then much harder to get it published. Even much harder to get people to buy it. And I know that the majority of people who buy it don’t actually read it, but that’s okay.
Please buy it.
Alison Jones: Do. It’s very readable. And I think it’s one of the reasons why as a writer, you have to be in love to some extent with the intrinsic value of being the person who’s written that book. You can’t be too attached to the outcome, can you?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Yes, exactly. I think Oscar Wilde said it’s okay to do something practical so long as you don’t really admire it, but the most important things are useless things that you really admire and maybe like, you know, there’s a craftsmanship to kind of, you know, art, poetry and book writing that is there.
And I think that’s why even, you know, when people send me their manuscripts or their substack, whatever, and there’s no practical or extrinsic reason, you know, they’re not doing it to brand themselves, to create a new brand, to get more clients, whatever, but because there’s something inside them that they need to kind of get out.
That’s, I think, good authenticity, or is a way in which people open up certain dimensions of their identity that they were hiding before. And you know, as a psychologist, of course, I’m very fascinated and curious by that.
Alison Jones: Fascinating. Now I always ask my guests, Tomas to give their sort of one best tip for somebody setting out on this journey. So, if they take nothing else away from this podcast, what would you like people who are listening to hold onto?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: I think, it has to be something around just trying to be more curious, a more curious version of themselves, whether it is in exploring new professional directions that they haven’t explored before, new hobbies, whether it is to try to become a more open-minded version of themselves. I’ve made a habit in recent years of trying to listen to podcasts or kind of media content that is really not aligned.
You know, I said this recently to somebody else like, is for sure a very masochistic experience for me to listen to Piers Morgan, but I do, and occasionally I question certain views or arguments that I have. And on that kind of being more curious quest and tip that I have, I love to quote Herminia Ibarra’s work on authenticity, who talks about, you know, in essence, why would you limit yourself or your existence to your present and past selves, if you can also expand it to incorporate all your future or possible selves? You know, by definition, if your approach to life or work or career is copy paste, which is what traditional authenticity kind of advocates for, you are not going to grow and you’re not going to develop.
You only develop by putting yourself in situations that stretch you and that actually make your natural adaptations ill suited, ill fitted. You know, and that’s how you kind of broaden or expand yourself or if you like, diversify your own identity. That’s the thing, a beautiful thing. It requires a lot of courage and you have to be, you know, tolerant to failing and taking risks and knowing that sometimes it’s only going to lead to embarrassment.
But I think that’s one of the beautiful things of being alive.
Alison Jones: And it’s one of the best answers to that, you know, I am what I am, or you know, this, take it, or… well, you could be so much more.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Yes, exactly.
Well, as I think I mentioned in the book you know, there was this guy who used to work with me, who showed up in my office once wearing a t-shirt that said something along the lines of Just Be You, They Will Adjust. Which to him, you know, sounded like a really kind of positive self-help mantra. But I said, you realize just how self-centered and narcissistic that is?
Alison Jones: We’ve all worked with those people.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Either you’re the only person wearing this t-shirt and the world just revolves around you or you think we should all wear it and then there’s just total anarchy.
Alison Jones: Yes. And I always ask my guests as well to recommend us a book, you’re not allowed to recommend your own. I think I know what you’re going to recommend, but what should we be reading, Tomas?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Oh, you know, I read a lot of things at the same time and mostly because I have scattered attention, but there is a book whose author now, I don’t remember, but the title is Infantalized and something along the lines, the subtitle is like, How modern workplace cultures killed maturity or something like that.
The author is a Danish anthropologist. I’m sure we can release kind of book notes later on, but it’s Infantalized and it’s really, really, really good. Actually it has a lot of connections with the book I’ve written, it starts with this sort of like anecdote of this person having a performance review and the manager says to this person, you’re doing really well. You’re hitting your targets, you know, you are great employee. But if I have one opportunity to develop, or constructive piece of feedback is like, you should pay attention to your spelling. Your spelling is a little bit sloppy. What do you mean? Said the employee. Like, well at times, you know, you’re communicating with clients or internal stakeholders and you just make a… But that’s how I spell it, is the answer. And then that person goes back home and the parents call the manager saying, how dare you hurt my daughter’s self-esteem and feeling. So it’s a big book and it’s a very great in-depth kind of illustration of how well-meaning sort of approaches to making cultures more employee centric actually became hijacked by our narcissistic zeitgeist.
Alison Jones: That’s terrific. You see, I thought you were going to say Herminia Ibarra because you are a big fan. I she’s…
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: I am and I have read, and while we talk I’m going to look at the author of the other, but I am, but you know, I actually haven’t read her book so much because I studied her work. And you know, if you’re a researcher and you’re doing a PhD in an area, even as a PhD student, I mean, as I said in the book, it’s almost like she has this demoralizing impact on my career and others, which is that the minute you decide to do something on a topic and then you read, you realize she covered it 10, 15 years before in a definitive way. So, you know, but yes, as I say, we’re all footnotes to her.
Alison Jones: I love that. And if people want to find out more about you or about your work or about your books, Tomas, where should they go?
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Yes. And first, let me tell you that his name is Keith Hayward. So it’s Infantalize: How our culture killed adulthood, which is a great subtitle.
As for my own work and writings, et cetera. The easiest thing is to go to my website, which is Dr. Tomas with no h.com.
So drtomas.com and there you can find information about the latest book, other writings, et cetera. And what I do and the book obviously is available on Amazon and any other kind of a portal is Don’t Be Yourself: Why authenticity is overrated and what to do instead.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. Thank you so much. It’s been fascinating talking to you, and there’s so much gold there for people who want to write a really good book themselves. Thank you.
Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic: Thank you. I really enjoyed this chat. Thank you so much.
