‘I think that flow is quite important. It’s almost like a cultural logic.’
Intercultural communication is always complex, but for Western leaders seeking to build relationships as a way in to the mighty Chinese market, it’s particularly tricky. From seating plans to changing job titles to how to ask for a solution to a problem, there are very different assumptions and unspoken rules. Which is why Catherine Xiang, UK Director for LSE’s Confucius Institute for Business, wrote Bridging the Gap: An introduction to intercultural communication with China, named Specialist Business Book of the Year.
It’s tricky enough when everyone is speaking English, but if you’re learning Mandarin, it gets even trickier: get the stress on a word wrong and you could easily proposition someone by mistake!
For writers with an eye to the global market, there’s a deeper significance too: not only language and metaphor but even the way the book opens or an argument is structured can embody a particular cultural bias. Practical strategies and a thoughtful perspective on how to build genuine, effective cross-cultural relationships, at the meeting table and on the page.
Catherine’s LSE page: https://www.lse.ac.uk/people/catherine-xiang
Catherine on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-hua-xiang-75890599/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
Alison Jones: I am here today with Dr. Catherine Xiang, who is an applied linguist and a consultant working with higher education and businesses wishing to engage with China.
She is East Asian Languages coordinator at the London School of Economics, Program Director for the BSC International Relations and Chinese and UK Director for LSE’s Confucius Institute for Business, which is a partnership between LSE and Tsinghua University.
She’s also the author of Bridging the Gap: An introduction to intercultural communication with China, which was named Specialist Business Book of the Year at this year’s Business Book Awards.
So, well, first of all, welcome Catherine, and congratulations.
Catherine Xiang: Thank you so much, Alison, for your kind introduction and it’s lovely to be on your show.
Alison Jones: It’s lovely to have you here. Are you still buzzing about, it’s a while back now, that September evening when we celebrated the Business Book Awards.
Catherine Xiang: I know, but it was such a pleasant surprise. You know, it’s the first time I tried to write a business book for, you know, general audienceship. So it’s a learning experience for me as well but it’s super exciting. So the best things happen when you’re, you know, not expecting that. And yes, thank you for having me again.
Alison Jones: I want to just dig in, before we start talking about the writing, because we will talk about the writing. I want to just ask you about the topic, because having read your book, I mean, I was aware that there were differences and the high context, low context sort of stuff, but I hadn’t realized just how significant those differences might be. How you might put yourself in an unnecessarily difficult situation by not understanding those differences.
So why did you write it? Why does it matter so much that people understand the different communication styles?
Catherine Xiang: Thank you for that question. I think the book, actually the idea of writing that, comes from years of executive education that I do at LSE. So, as you know, I work for the Confucius Institute for Business, which is helping UK or British business professionals to communicate and engage effectively with Chinese counterparts.
So for them, they all come to us because they, you know, face such challenges and barriers at firsthand. So part of writing the book is taking the material from my course material that I prepared for my students, thinking about, oh, okay, maybe this can turn into a book that more people can benefit, by raising this kind of awareness, so that they can actually really effectively communicating for better business outcomes. So that, I think that’s the rationale, partly through the years of experience and just help more people to engage with China.
And I think the second question you asked is more about what are the challenges and why it can be so tricky. And I think you actually also talk about just because people coming from different cultural backgrounds, sometimes we don’t realize or we don’t think that there can be different ways of thinking, different ways of communicating. And from the surface, it feels natural. Of course, there will be differences, but then the nuances is always in the details. So until you break things down to understand why people communicate in this way and what are the patterns and the style, and then how you could learn to engage and accommodate to that particular style, then you get a full understanding, rounded understanding, of how to tackle such difficulties or challenges.
Alison Jones: And you do set out in your book the sort of economic reasons why this matters. Just the sheer size of the market in China and the economic power, but also the soft power, the cultural power, the fact that so many Chinese are learning English, which I hadn’t realized, is phenomenal.
And the opportunities there, I mean, presumably that’s what’s driving this, isn’t it? The prize, the potential prize is huge.
Catherine Xiang: Yes, definitely. If you think about the world population and how many people, you know, speak Mandarin Chinese as their first language, it is really 20% of the world population and that can turn into massive market for anyone, for anything. And also in the last 40 years, China now rose economically to the second world economic power and that creates more opportunity for international trade and business to take place.
And I think, as I mentioned in the beginning of the book, and you rightly pointed out, there is a gap. There’s a gap in terms of people’s interest and investment in trying to understand each other, and obviously the example that I give is through how people invest time in learning each other’s language because language is so closely intertwined with culture.
I think the number, you know, back in 2018, just pre COVID, in China over 400 million people learning English. Of course English is important because it’s nowadays the lingua franca, but across the whole world, only 30 million people learning Mandarin Chinese, yet we have 1.4 billion people speaking it, using it daily. It’s the biggest, you know, language in terms of native speaker of the world.
So I think there’s a little bit of a gap, and part of the book is trying to address that gap and try to raise more awareness and possibly more interest for people to learn about China, Chinese communication style, and it is one of the greatest world, you know, civilization.
Alison Jones: And that really, I found fascinating as well. You know, you sort of gave a little picture of the Mona Lisa and then a picture of a really classic Chinese picture, which of course I had never seen before. So that sense of just lack of, that blind spot to this astonishing culture as well, which I think is a real disservice that our education system does us, which is really fascinating.
I think, I don’t know if this was your intention, but I came away from the book terrified at the idea of learning Chinese because it’s so easy to get it wrong. I mean, the inflection, it is something we don’t particularly have to think about in English, but it changes the meaning completely in Chinese, doesn’t it? You’ve got those four different inflection patterns. I thought, I’m never going to do this.
Catherine Xiang: No, no, no, please don’t be discouraged, actually in English you have intonation as well. It just works slightly differently. And usually, you know, we tell students, for example, when you think about the second tone, it’s almost like you’re a little bit surprised when you say what, right? You go up and then the fourth tone it could sound like a little bit abrupt. Like you are a little bit angry, say no.
So you do have that, and it’s something people can learn, you know, through practice and you know, it’s a combination of listening and speaking. But as you say, it is something quite fun to learn because sometimes people learn from mistakes because the tone is different, the meaning can change, but it can turn into something really fun.
So for example, you know, in Chinese to ask is Wèn, right, and to kiss is Wěn. So it’s a very subtle difference and I tend to joke with my students, you don’t want to make question. You don’t want to instead of want to say, I want to ask you something, and you say, I want, can I kiss you? I want to kiss you. Then the meaning completely changes.
But in reality, you know, sometimes, because we have students spend a year abroad in China, and then some of them, after they came back, they say, Catherine, now we understand why you say the tones are important. Actually this happened. And then they learn it in a hard way. But it is actually, then if you look back, it become a really interesting life story they can tell and share with friends. So things like this,
Alison Jones: Maybe whole relationships have started this way. I don’t know.
Catherine Xiang: It’s just part of the learning, you know.
Alison Jones: But most of us, most of the people listening to this probably haven’t learned Chinese, may not learn Chinese, but you give some really interest examples in the book of, of the sorts of mistakes that we can make, even in a meeting in English, around just how to approach the agenda, for example. So just give us a little example of how things can go wrong if you’re just not aware of the cultural differences.
Catherine Xiang: So for example, in the business context, so there are different ways. Partly it’s to do with communication, but even sometimes the other basic stuff like how you present your business card, how the seat arrangement is set up for meeting and also, you know, when to say yes, when to say no, when it comes to a business invite. All that can make small differences.
So let’s take the seat arrangement as an example. Usually it’s very important in China, whether you are in an actual, kind of a business meeting setting or post business in terms of a business dinner or banquet, it’s all part of the business environment, but the way you set things up is really, I would say, strict to certain extent.
Usually we have, you know, delegations from China. We usually have to really agree with them in advance, how to set up the table to make sure the status are kind of fully represented. I know it is something that also equally important in the UK, but possibly not to that extent. Everything has to be agreed and everything has to be like properly checked in advance. So that’s the first thing.
And then after the formal meeting, even in the sort of, I would say more relaxed atmosphere after, you know, like a business dinner, still, you know, we have to make sure that the seating reflects the power dynamic in the room and also reflects who’s going to pay the bill. It’s a very subtle but important thing to do, and if you are not aware of this, and one of my British colleagues now say to me, you know, if I go to China, I will never sit down until someone invite me to sit down because you could accidentally didn’t realize and sit in a seat that create a lot of awkwardness for everyone around you because they are think, okay, this is not the right seating.
And it’s kind of funny way that we do it in China because in the UK it’s quite often people have their name tag. For example, on the dinner table, it’s all layout, but in Chinese people want to do it very subtle way. So it’s not really spelled out for you. You have to be able to understand and read room and then you can follow the rules. I don’t know whether I explained that, you know?
Alison Jones: Fascinating, yes, really helpful and just, I think because we know that there are differences, but just to give an example like that I think is really helpful. And it’s a very good reason why this sort of guide almost to sort of just, these are the things to be aware of, you know, it might vary by situation, but just don’t sit down until you know where you’re supposed to be sitting. You know, even that is a really valuable lesson, isn’t it?
Catherine Xiang: The other thing can be very confusing to Westerners is about terms of address, and it’s a very subtle thing in China as well. So, as you probably know, title’s really important and so it’s very unusual for Chinese colleagues or in a Chinese setting to address the other person just with their first name, because that could come across as not professional or not showing respect.
And typically it’s a surname followed by job title. And that’s, I think, so far so good overall. But there’s a small thing is where this word, if someone is a deputy. So let’s say you have the director, right? But someone is the deputy director. So this is where it gets very interesting when you introduce a colleague who’s a deputy director, but without the actual director in presence, a Chinese person will not introduce that person as deputy director.
Instead, a Chinese person will introduce that person as director. So surname with Director, they would drop the deputy. And the reason is to give that person faith, to give that person the honor, this person, you know, deserve because that person is the highest in the room. so to speak. But the moment, if there is the director actually in the room, and only then, only in that context you would use, you know, deputy director and director to call them to then reflect the differences in ranking.
So sometimes our foreign colleagues say, I’m so confused, who’s actually the deputy director, is he not the director, is she not the deputy director? So there’s a bit of confusion, but we adapt the term of address in order to give the respect in the context that is meaningful to the people who are actually present, so that’s a very subtle thing.
Alison Jones: It is, but it reflects something really foundational, doesn’t it? Which is that the focus is on establishing the power and relationships in the room rather than the strict accuracy of a job title. And that’s the, yes, fascinating.
You give a lovely example in the book of the differences in how they express themselves in writing. So you had sort of two students looking at, I think it’s a morning walk, wasn’t it? Tell us about a morning walk and a Western student going, well, a morning walk is very important and going through all the benefits of it and the Chinese student basically making it into a poem about how the world is waking up and there are very different writing styles and I just, I was reading that, I was thinking, this is so interesting because when you sit down to write a book like this, are you very conscious of the register that you’re choosing? Are you synthesizing them or are you opting for the Western Register because you’re writing for that audience? Or you know, how did you go about it?
Catherine Xiang: Hmm. Thank you for asking that. I think the first layer of the question is very much deeply cultural because how we write, right? It’s very integrated in how we were educated and how we perceive what type of writing is beautiful or what type of writing is clear, for example. So I think that specific essay is one example, but I think another example I actually mentioned in my book is in the business context about how you write a request or how you write a complaint, that’s like totally different.
Chinese tend to start with the background and why do we start with a background? Because we believe the moment I explain what happened, I don’t really need to ask for resolution or make a request because you should know already, right. But the British style tend to focus on clarity. So it will always start with the request itself and then explain why I request in this particular way or what is the complaint about, and maybe ask for a resolution.
So I think that is very deeply cultural in terms of how we approach things because we were educated in that way and reflect the value or the understanding of good writing. And in terms of my own experience writing the book, I think, you know, partially, I think it’s a little bit easier in terms of I have all my writing training done in the UK because I did my Masters and my PhD, so I have been trained in a way to think and write more in a British style, so to speak.
But you are right and there’s always a little difficulty sometimes thinking about the sequence, thinking about where shall I start first? Actually funny enough, the structure of the book, I shifted completely. So currently, the structure of the book is, so I explain the What, so what is the Chinese communication style, right? And followed by Why. Why do they communicate in this way? And then end up with How, so once you know the what and why, let’s look at how. But I think that was a bit of a struggle because I actually was debating a lot with myself. Shall I actually start with Why, shall I actually start with Why, then look at What and for some reason, How always come at the end.
Alison Jones: Yes,
Catherine Xiang: Yes, but I was actually, there’s a lot of debates in my head when I think about the structure of the book. Maybe a little bit less about the register when I start writing.
But I think the structure, how to approach and how to make sure it is engaging, hopefully right from the beginning, already for the readers. I hope I made the right choice at the end, but now you asked that question, I was reflecting back. I think that was a quite big struggle for me at the time, deciding the structure.
Alison Jones: And it is that point again about context. Do we start with context or do we need to get straight into the why this matters? Yes, so fascinating. And what’s interesting as well, of course is this isn’t an academic question. And I don’t mean academic in the sense of LSE, I just mean it’s a real question for authors writing business books in English because the Chinese market for translation of business books is huge.
So many of our books are translated into Chinese, so, if somebody is writing their business book and they know that this is a topic that might be interesting for Chinese readers, is there anything that they can think about or keep in mind as they write that will make it appeal to the Chinese market for translation?
Catherine Xiang: I think, again, I would think it is a little bit about the structure because, you know, the Chinese way really, or the typical Chinese business book will start with the background, what we already know, rather than automatically present what is new, what is the original idea. So I think that flow is quite important. It’s almost like a cultural logic.
And the second dimension is more about the actual art of the translation. So that’s more kind of nuanced in linguistics and Chinese language is very poetic and Chinese language has a lot of idioms. So we tend to use metaphor and idioms to illustrate ideas. For a Western style book to read really well to a Chinese audience is about using this kind of, you know, idiomatic formulae and to sound more sophisticated. So it’s not necessarily, I think, something the western writers can automatically, necessarily adapt their style. I would say it’s actually really find good translators who can, you know, who can understand what the author had intended, and have that skill and knowledge to transform that into a Chinese language that resonate with Chinese readers.
I don’t think there is anything, you know, that western writers necessarily have to force themselves to think in a Chinese way. And because we have so many, you know, amazing English literatures have been translated into Chinese. And we all love Shakespeare. You know, we all love a lot of British writers. And I think, you know, it’s more about the nuance of the translation skills itself.
Alison Jones: It’s not just translating the meaning, you’re translating the register, the idiomatic; that is so interesting. And I think it’s important as well, you know, when people are using idiom, when they’re using metaphor, not every metaphor travels globally. So that’s really something to keep in mind, for the English Language edition of your book being read internationally as well as for translations. Yes, good thing to keep in mind.
Catherine Xiang: Definitely, definitely, I mean, that’s a total whole field of study. You know, translation, especially translation cross-cultural, a lot of expressions, a lot of even concepts understood in one culture or unique to one culture. And how you can actually then translate into something familiar or easier to understand with another culture that is totally, you know, different. And it’s very much based on the individual experiences, what we share, what we know. I give you one interesting example because I used to teach that to our students, partly I was more, explain the idea of culture sensitivity, but it’s relevant to what we say.
Do you like Italian food, for example?
Alison Jones: I love Italian food
Catherine Xiang: Okay, great. So, if I ask you about Italian pasta, what comes to your mind?
Alison Jones: Spaghetti, ravioli, fusilli
Catherine Xiang: Ah, very good, very, I can see you like Italian food because you already given me three, so, excellent. So if I ask Italian person, what does pasta mean to them? Exactly, like you, they can give me 10, 15 different type of pasta because pasta is not just one thing, right? Now, if I go to a Chinese person and ask them what is the first thing, you know, come to your mind about pasta?
They will say spaghetti. But the reason is the translation of spaghetti into Chinese. The literal world is Italian noodles because, you know, Chinese, we love noodles. So this is the very easy, you know, translation for Chinese people to understand what that is. It’s a shape of noodle coming from Italy.
So Italian noodles is spaghetti and it’s one of the very first and most common pasta being imported in China. But then if ask American. What does spaghetti to you? Can you guess it’s macaroni, because mac and…
Alison Jones: mac and cheese. Yes.
Catherine Xiang: It’s what they grow up with. It’s a pasta that they’re most familiar with.
So that tells you, you know, what word or what the concept means to different people. It’s very much shaped by their experience. How they, you know, being conceptually embraced, in their environment, and that’s relevant to translation, but that is also relevant to understand key cultural values.
Alison Jones: Yes, and we’re all hungry now, so yes, thank you for that. I go straight off here and make a bowl of mac and cheese.
Catherine, I always ask my guests for their best tip. So you are an award-winning author of course. So we’re very much here for your best tips. If somebody sort of starting out on this journey and you know, trying to organize their business book and plan it out and write it, what’s your best advice for them?
Catherine Xiang: I think the first thing is to start. That’s really important. And the second thing is really be consistent. I think I found that really helpful to me. Luckily, I wouldn’t say I’m a perfectionist because I think that could easily kill any project. So for me, being consistent, meaning allocate some time every day rather than plan writing. I mean, I know everyone’s different, but I’m just sharing what works for me.
To allocate, you know, an hour to an hour and a half each morning. And where you are quiet, you know, you have the energy, your mind is fresh. Just write, it doesn’t matter. From my perspective, you know, I can be, today suddenly I feel, you know, I want to write chapter one, tomorrow I can be totally writing about chapter six. If I read something that is relevant and I feel I can expand on that and write about particular section of the chapter. I would do with that.
So what I write every day is less important. What is important is I have a system, I have dedicated time, and I’m being consistent.
The consistency is to write something down, even though if it’s, you know, only 50 words today, but then tomorrow maybe be 500 words because I’m now in the flow. So I think that is very useful and important. Hopefully that can, you know enable people to just get away that fear and the anxiety and the writer’s block and even, let’s say in this dedicated time, right? Sometimes I also have writer’s block. I was like, but then you can just read something, can do research on the topics that you want to, you know, write about. You can read similar topics or learn a little bit from other authors, how they approach similar subjects.
So just use that time consistently and worry less about what you’re going to produce within that timeframe. But, you know, I guarantee you that is a lot easier than cram writing and lock myself down, only the weekend and just put myself in this room and write. I just find that really much more effective.
Alison Jones: Yes, I love that. And I think you make, well, there’s two points I’m just going to highlight there as well. One is your point about going where the energy is, so you don’t have to start at the beginning, work through to the end. If you’ve got something on chapter six, that’s speaking to you, then start there, just yes, absolutely. And I think people often don’t feel they have permission to do that somehow.
And the other thing is that thing about, you know, writing doesn’t always look like actually sitting and writing words at your computer. We talk about writing a book, but that can mean having a conversation. It can mean reading something else. It can mean making notes. It can mean revising. It can actually mean losing words from your manuscript, which feels very counterproductive. But, you know, it’s one word, but it embraces this whole kind of panoply of activities that are related to creating a book.
Catherine Xiang: Thank you, you summarized it so well. Usually I find, it’s not really a tip per se, it’s more like maybe sharing my personal experience. I find the early stage easier because I think I find I have that system set up. I know how to work consistently. I actually find later editorial stage a lot more challenging.
Precisely as you say, I think it is, the end is like over and over again looking at the same material and to think about how I can make it better, that is a tough period, and I actually don’t have any tips.
I think, oh, maybe, maybe the only tip is sometimes by that stage, I find to give myself permission to have a break away from my work is actually helpful because it really gets to a stage that you feel like, oh my God, I can’t read this chapter one more time. I’m like, so fed up with what I’ve actually worked on because I’ve been, you know, kind of consumed almost because you are reading it over and over and over again.
I think if you get to that point, just give yourself permission to leave it for a week or even just several days. It just helps. Then you can come back and find the energy and find that fresh pair of eyes again to embrace the work that you have.
Alison Jones: Yes. Such a great tip. Well, loads of tips there. Thank you, brilliant.
And I always ask my guests as well to recommend us a book. I’m really interested to hear, what you will recommend for us.
Catherine Xiang: Oh, that’s a tough one because I have so many books that I enjoy reading. Maybe I would say the classic, you know, How to Win Friends and Influence People. I think I liked the book because it has lots of stories in it. And also I read both the English version, the original, but also the Chinese translated version.
I think I liked the way how it’s written, but also, you know, the storytelling in it and the rhythm about, you know, human nature and how you can really develop that skill and that empathy and that, subtle way of connecting with each other. That’s what I like about this book.
Alison Jones: Yes, it’s a classic for a reason, isn’t it?
Catherine Xiang: Yes.
Alison Jones: Great recommendation, wonderful. And Catherine, if people want to find out more about you, more about the work that you do at LSE and beyond and your book, where should they go?
Catherine Xiang: So, if they want to find me via LSE, they just put my name in LSE. So my people page at LSE will pop up and it will tell you about my expertise, my publication and the work I do at LSE.
So that will be more kind of academia side and more broadly speaking, people can connect with me via LinkedIn. I use LinkedIn relatively actively, I’m not very good with social media. I think LinkedIn is the only main platform that I use and I post videos and I post work there. So if people do want to reach out, they can connect me there.
Alison Jones: Brilliant. Well, I’ll put your LSE page and your LinkedIn profile up on the show notes @extraordinarybusinessbooks.com if people want to take that further.
And of course you can find the book anywhere, Bridging the Gap. It is absolutely brilliant.
So congratulations again on the win and it has been such a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much for your time.
Catherine Xiang: Thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Thank you again, Alison, for having me.
