‘ An author might be thinking, I can’t wait till the book is out on a bookshelf… I would suggest focus on the experience of the writing and the pleasure of actually writing the book and the satisfaction you’re going to get in doing that.’
David Sinkinson, SaaS entrepreneur, podcaster, and co-author of Startup Different (all of this done in partnership with his brother, Chris) is a big fan of business books. On long commute after long commute they taught him pretty much everything he needed to know to start and succeed with his own business, and one of the reasons he wrote his own book was a desire to pay that back.
One of the ways he does that is by rejecting the easy myths: he’s open about the doubt, the missteps and the WFIO moments (you’ll have to listen) along the way, and along with the practical wisdom he addresses the emotional weight of building a business, what he describes as ‘baked-in empathy’.
Having read a lot of business books is a great start when you’re writing a business book, but nothing is ever going to make this easy. David has some great advice for anyone taking the job on (especially in partnership with a fellow author), and draws out the parallel with entrepreneurship: it’s hard, you’re constantly doubting yourself, but if you can let yourself appreciate the process while you’re in it rather than obsessing about the outcome, you might just find it’s one of the most grittily joyful experiences of your life.
Startup Different site: https://www.startupdifferent.com/
Startup Different on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/startupdifferent/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
Alison Jones: I am here today with David Sinkinson, who is a SaaS entrepreneur, co-founder with his brother Chris, more on that soon, and CEO of safety software startup AppArmor, which was subsequently acquired by Motorola Solutions. And he’s also the co-author, also with his brother, of Startup Different, which took the Startup, Scale Up Award at this year’s Business Book Awards, and he hosts the award-winning Startup Different podcast.
So first of all, welcome David. Very good to have you here.
David Sinkinson: Yes, thrilled to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Alison Jones: It’s always fun when you interview a podcaster, like, I’m on the wrong side of the mic. What’s going on?
David Sinkinson: It does feel like I have a really strong urge to talk right now, and I’m suppressing it as much as I can to allow you to speak.
Alison Jones: I am not the host. Not the host. Yes. That’s very funny.
So, you wrote this book, Startup Different. You have, if you’re watching on YouTube, you’ll see the lovely Startup Different logo behind David. It’s very, very on brand, but you talk in it about… yes, very good. You talk in it about this ‘busting the myths of entrepreneurship’ and I just wanted to find out a little bit more about the thinking behind the book and I guess what you want it to do in the world for people.
David Sinkinson: Yes, so the first thing I’ll say is that when I started my company AppArmor with my brother we were side hustling that for a while. So I was working on that while working at my full-time job at a major telecom here in Canada. So I’m Canadian, so you might hear an A or a couple of fun idioms or something as we go through this.
But, and so as I was going to that job, I actually had a pretty long commute, so I would read a business book probably one every three days. It’s like my preferred genre. I’ve just always enjoyed business books. It’s some mix of practicality and like self-help and obviously very helpful for what exactly I was doing at that time.
And so that’s sort of where my love of this sort of started. And so I read a whole bunch of books and, you know, the business started to do better as the more I got into these topics. I also have a business education as well, so I was just all in this. And, I think that I got to the point where I really enjoyed the genre and I wanted to contribute back to it. So that’s the kind of the spirit of why I wanted to write the book or one of the big reasons was I just really enjoyed it and I felt like I should contribute to this space.
The second thing that, the second major purpose was sort of paying it forward. So that is trying to, obviously we had a great outcome with our company and we had tremendous financial success, and I’m so grateful for that and I wanted to give people the lessons that we learned, sometimes very painfully, so they could avoid them. And the idea was just helping those young entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs sort of at various stages of their company, avoid the biggest mistakes that we had. And the book has a lot of humility baked into it. It’s not just like, look at us, look how great we are, high fiving and backslapping or so to speak.
It’s very much like, and here’s where we really messed up. And here’s where this thing flew right off the rails. And I think that’s the most actual important learning for a lot of entrepreneurs, is seeing where the failures occur.
Of course, you want to have an aspirational belief that you can be successful, but on the other hand, just being aware of like where the big pitfalls exist.
Alison Jones: It is not even just the big pitfalls though, is it David? Because there was a lovely, what I really enjoyed actually was just the pragmatic kind of, here’s how it works. You probably wouldn’t think it would work like this. Because you know, there is, we sort of sense make backwards, don’t we? And we look at the successes and we sort of go, well of course it was inevitable that this wouldn’t succeed. And of course it never was.
And you sort of list out the six or seven kind of hustles that you had going and this is one of them, and you’re like, yes, we wouldn’t bet on this one either, but this is the one that flew.
David Sinkinson: That’s true. I did write that.
Alison Jones: You did. And, I love the way that you’re just like, do you know, it’s not like you have this one idea. You can have lots of ideas and you can try them out and you don’t have to put your whole life savings behind them at any one point. You know, there’s a sort of realism and ‘can do-ery’ about that, that I found really energizing.
David Sinkinson: I think, and this gets back to the myths really, I think what we were trying to do was avoid a lot of the hype and because there’s a tremendous amount of pressure as an entrepreneur early on too. Kind of follow a unicorn path. You know, everybody wants to have a billion dollar business. You know, they think their idea is really, really good.
Entrepreneurs are overwhelmingly optimists. Like it’s just, it’s well documented
Alison Jones: Oh, you wouldn’t do it if you weren’t.
David Sinkinson: Yes, I wouldn’t do it otherwise, right. So you kind of believe that you can. And so in that context it was like, how do we add a dose of realism without dream crushing? Because I still want people to believe in what they’re doing, but I want them to be prepared for what they’re getting into.
And so these myths that we identify, so we have 33 different myths in the book, and that’s everything from, you know, do you really need funding to start your company? All the way to, you know, some of the things that you’re considering when you’re selling your company. And basically everything in between. There’s a ton of content.
And the idea was sometimes you hear this term on social media, but the idea of a value bomb, like I was trying to provide as much value as possible, as many lessons as possible throughout the content of the book. This is not one of those books where it’s like we have one idea and I’m going to write about it for 200 pages.
This is a book where I am going to write about a new idea every 10 to 15 pages. I’m going to tell you a story about how it affected us. I’m going to tell you why it was good or bad, and then how we addressed it going forward, and then any other broader impacts there that might be important.
And that, to me, it is almost like synthesizing a broad array of business books and adding our experience to it. And we cite so many books throughout it because, and you could tell I’m a little bit read in this space, and just trying to provide that value as clearly and as succinctly as possible for the reader.
Alison Jones: It’s a tricky thing, when you have your own story. It’s kind of table stakes, right? If you haven’t done this, you can’t write about it, you need your own experience and your experience was your experience and it’s not going to be the same for everybody else reading it.
So, I think for every business book writer, particularly in the sort of startup space where it’s a really, you know, specific story, you’ve got this tension between showing what happened for you and learning the lessons from that and accepting that this is… and I’m going to quote it because I actually wrote it down, I thought it was such a great phrase. You say something about the book looks like it’s about what you did, but actually it’s about what the reader can do.
And I just thought that was such an insightful phrase. Tell me how that played out in practice when you were writing.
David Sinkinson: Yes. So another thing that we heard from one of our mentors, actually while I was writing the book was, you know, you have to be careful when you write this kind of book because you know, you’re an ‘n’ of one. You’re, you know, your sample size is you. And, I thought a lot about that as I was writing this.
And I think with any good book, just broadly speaking, like zooming out for the authors listening today, you know, you’re trying to send your reader on a quest, and that quest will have a series of side quests and different things they’re taking on, but ultimately you are making a deal with the reader that you’re providing them with something that they can take away and learn from and be inspired from, and so on and so forth.
And so in this context, it was very much like, yes, I’m going to write about us, I’m going to write about us as a tool to show how any person can accomplish these things. Like I’m not, I wasn’t given millions of dollars, like we bootstrapped our company too is worth putting this in context as well. But we weren’t given millions of dollars. We weren’t, I’m not very wealthy or anything like that. I didn’t come from wealth, you know, I wasn’t poor either. I was just solid middle class family. You know, I’m in Canada, I’m not in Silicon Valley.
You know, there’s a whole bunch of different things where I’m just trying to demonstrate that I’m very much an average person, okay. And our story in a lot of ways is just about two guys who happen to be able to work together. I do list out our caveats early on, our sort of criteria that makes us exceptional in some ways. But again, the spirit of this is very much that anybody can accomplish this.
Now, I don’t think everybody should necessarily be an entrepreneur. But if you are an entrepreneur and you believe in what you’re doing and you follow a lot of these principles, I fundamentally believe that your chances of success materially improve. And of course starting a business is a very difficult thing to do.
Depending on the stats here, it’s somewhere between 60 and 90% of startups fail, which is a big range, but it partially the definition failure
Alison Jones: They’re all over half, aren’t they?
David Sinkinson: Yes, yes. So I think it’s kind of like, you know, that’s across the economy too. So, you know, like restaurants for example are 90% failure rate, okay. E-commerce startups, kind of confusingly because you’d think that’s very lucrative, that’s like 80% failure rate. And that definition is basically like liquidating the assets. So that’s like we’re shutting the lights off, or sometimes the definition of failure is like, you know we never reach profitability.
So at any rate, but the point is that it’s very, very difficult, but anybody can do this. And yes, I really wanted to highlight to the reader that this can be you. You know, I am not exceptional in most ways. And, that’s important.
Alison Jones: But I want to dig into the mechanics behind that because I get, and that’s your north star, that’s what you’re trying to do, and that’s what you’re keeping in mind. When you come to write a chapter, when you come to translate your past experience into words on the page, how do you keep the reader at the center of that?
David Sinkinson: Yes, I think it comes back to the humility. Again, you can tell, I’m really trying to focus on how it’s not an exceptional piece. Then when, it’s not an exceptional story, but when I write the stories themselves, I try to emphasize a lot of the emotions that I was experiencing. Because I think what you see too is when you characterize a lot of the Silicon Valley stories and you know these amazing entrepreneurs that have been incredibly successful, you never hear about the moments, or maybe you gloss over them or you don’t hear about it as often, unless they explicitly write about it.
Like, I think one of my favorite books is The Hard Thing About Hard Things, and that’s an interesting, Ben Horowitz, which is very fascinating, and he talks about how, you know, the raw emotions of pure white hot terror that he feels at certain times. And I think that that really translates on a human level.
So I try to be more emotionally purposeful in the writing and of the stories, I remember I start every section with a story about something in our company. And I, most of the time, if I can, I’m telling you how I feel. And I’m also telling you how I thought others were feeling. It’s almost just like baked-in empathy. Can you feel the emotions of the people in the room?
And I think that helps to connect on a human level and to show that, like, it wasn’t as if I was, or my co-founder, Chris, and brother, it wasn’t as if we were like always, you know, clear-eyed and, you know, believed in exactly what was happening. That we had no doubts. We had constant doubts, constant fears, constant psychological challenge.
It is really, really hard to push through some of these things. You know, I think I allude to it occasionally throughout the book, which is actually also a nod to The Hard Thing About Hard Things, which is these WFIO moments, which is, We’re F’d It’s Over. And you know, we had a lot of them and they were terrifying.
But I just feel like that the emotional connection and the highlighting of negative emotions really lends itself to a tighter connection to the reader. I am being honest about how this went. If I wasn’t being honest, I’d say, and this is when I knew we were on the right path. I so rarely knew that I was on the right path necessarily, broadly speaking, maybe. But on the day to day, week to week, month to month, it was very challenging to know that.
Alison Jones: I do think that is a real gift to a reader actually to normalize the doubt, the fear, the sense of I don’t know what I’m doing. Yes. All of that.
David Sinkinson: It’s terrifying. Like the thing about entrepreneurs, right, is we’re generalists, we’re not like particularly good usually at any one thing. I do think you want to come into a business with an expert, some sort of expertise. My expertise though, because I, when we started our company, I was basically coming out of school.
My expertise, I would actually suggest was two things. One is I understood the psychology of students, which was important because they are our buyers, we’re providing products to students, the mobile safety application. So it’s like a, I can get into that later.
But anyway and then the other piece was I am a natural talker, salesperson. I had worked other roles in sales and my co-founder was the software developer, built code, had been building other side hustles as you alluded to earlier, and we had been kind of working together, so it was, we had very overlapping and complementary strengths. But again, I don’t think that’s a huge wealth of, I certainly didn’t have a big wealth of experience, so I, walk into this and I had to learn a lot about how to sell to universities, how to sell to big organizations, how to get in front of them, how to demo the product, how to figure out what mattered, how to market.
Like I had business education, but it’s totally different when you’re in the market and trying to do this stuff.
Alison Jones: And you and Chris have got a lot of overlapping experience, right? You grew up together, you built a company together. Now you’ve written a book together.
David Sinkinson: And we have a podcast together too. not over yet.
Alison Jones: A podcast together. Maybe you should get out and see more people. I don’t know.
David Sinkinson: Hey, what are you saying? I like my brother. He is a good guy.
Alison Jones: It’s just as well you like your brother. Can you imagine if just had seething resentment?
David Sinkinson: Oh yes, it happens too, right? You see that, you do see the other end of this equation where the founders exit. They never talk to each other again.
Alison Jones: So I think it’s challenging, you know, I mean it’s challenging in any relationship, but maybe it’s easier in some ways for brothers, maybe it’s harder in some ways, I don’t know.
But what did you notice in terms of the collaboration when you were writing, compared to the collaboration when you were working together?
David Sinkinson: So, I actually have to start with the working together piece because it sets the table for the writing. So, Chris and I learned a lot about each other. So I think that we really had to fight our sort of sibling instincts, I would call it. We had a lot of candour in the office. Too much candour, I’d say, where, you know, you’re splicing in the ad hominem with some sort argument.
Yes, Yes, Yes. You what? Yes, this is a stupid idea and you’re a stupid person.
So I think that was a challenge. We learned a few things from other folks, a couple of different things. So other folks who had co-founders obviously, which is, you know, a lot of folks in the entrepreneurship community and they would say stuff like, you know, just keep talking. Make sure you keep talking, you keep working through the problem and it’s okay to go to bed angry. You wake up the next day, you know, and we always try to leave it on the field. So that is. If we were having a dispute at work, we kept it at work.
If we, because, you know, then we’d go to our respective homes and we might meet up for dinner or something later. We didn’t want to be like mad at each other. And that worked most of the time. And I think we also, whenever we would have a big fight, we’d also try to find some kind of data. I had mentioned this in the book as well, but something to sort of, something to support our position. Anything, anything that was out there. Because often where we most fought was when our gut was against like one gut versus the other gut. When we didn’t have any data, it was just sort of us arguing and fighting.
And once we found some data to support or otherwise counter it, we found we were more open to understanding each other. So that was really, really important. And so I think that those principles really, really guided us well. And as time went on, like we fought the most early because you have the least amount of data and everything seems higher stakes.
But once you’re later on, you kind of understand your strengths, their tendencies, and so on and so forth. So one of the things that Chris and I know about each other is that we struggle quite, actually, quite a bit in working well together when it comes to what I’d call sort of like a creative project. So as an example, we very much struggle, this is so silly, but we very much struggle to make PowerPoint decks together because I just have a certain style. He has a certain style, and if we’re both in on it, we feel like one’s looking over the other shoulder kind of going like, oh, why did you do this? Why’d you do that? And I don’t like that.
So, usually now what we do is one does a chunk, then one comes and reviews that but like separately, like we don’t do it together because we just, we fight. And so, with the book, it was interesting. Chris we joke, he sort of writes like a computer coder, so he’s like, you know, if business problem then, you know, else, you know, win a business.
And so we…
Alison Jones: … I think we all want program be fair…
David Sinkinson: …yes, like, so often what we would do is I would have him write the bullet points of something that was important to him on every chapter or on every section. There are certain sections that were effectively, exclusively written by him, but he didn’t actually write the words. He wrote the bullets out what he wanted to say, the data, he wanted to support it, and I would write it and we decided that we also wanted to keep a consistent voice through the book.
So one thing that I do find kind of frustrating about some multi-author books is you get into the tempo and the speed and the sense of humor and the person behind the words, the author and sometimes you lose that and you can lose the reader if they don’t like the style of the other author or the book can feel really disjointed. Particularly I’ve read a couple of books where, you know, there’s like three, maybe even like four authors and that’s kind of just like, I feel for the editors, because that’s a really challenging edit to make that consistent.
So for us, we decided I would just, the voice would just be mine. I would write the entire, like write the entire book. But Chris would contribute all throughout it, and that worked really well. And one thing that personally I had to get over too, and this sounds ridiculous as well, but I had actually a really hard time with people editing my writing.
And this goes back to my college and my university days, where my undergrad degree was in history and it was just like a lot of writing and I just couldn’t take feedback that well about it. And I got over that pretty quickly as we got to the book because it’s just not tenable. Like if we’re going to do something with somebody else like this, like you’ve got to be able to take that.
So, that was something I worked on personally.
Alison Jones: It comes back to that humility point as well, doesn’t it? I mean, that works for the writing as well as the business. It’s like…
David Sinkinson: …oh, for sure…
Alison Jones: …It’s not about me, it’s about the reader.
David Sinkinson: Yes. And actually, I think that’s really, again, it’s super, super important that, and everyone’s read books that are way too much about the author as opposed to the promise that you’re making.
I will shout out a book that I really, really like about that, that talks a lot about this, which is a book by AJ Harper, and it’s called How to Write A Must Read, and I read it before…
…so I read a book about how to write a book and it’s a phenomenal, phenomenal book in terms of how to structure. She’s a ghost writer. She does really, really good work. I highly recommend it to anybody listening today, if you’re like wondering how to like get started, that’s a really good place to start.
And it really helped kind of structure what I was trying to do.
Alison Jones: Brilliant, and I’m going to come to that, so hold that thought, but before I do, I always ask my guests for their best tip, for somebody starting out on this journey. And by this journey, I usually mean writing a business book, but hey, it could be starting up different too. What’s your best tip?
David Sinkinson: I think, one thing that many authors or your publisher or even your editor might tell you is that they struggle a lot during the substantive edit and sort of the writing process, and I’m going to flip that on its head and say, I loved writing the book. I really enjoyed it and I was very efficient.
This is probably a series of tips, I suppose, but I wrote every single day for three to four months and I got so good at it. I was in such a good tempo. I loved reliving the stories. I loved finding the information that would support whatever I was talking about. So I really enjoyed that experience and I think that’s something that is very, very important.
In our society we tend to be very outcome focused, you know, so somebody, an author might be thinking, I can’t wait till the book is out on a bookshelf or online or out there, or whatever. I would suggest focus on the experience of the writing and the pleasure of actually writing the book and the satisfaction you’re going to get in doing that. That to me, I think is one of the best parts of this entire process.
And our book’s won awards and it’s been sold and you know, people bought it, that kind of stuff. But to me, I think that experience, and again the substantive edit, which was sort of tightening and all the other important things that are important to make your book really compelling nowadays, that’s usually very painful for authors and for me, I actually really enjoyed that because I felt like that took my writing, which was okay, and that really elevated it to, I’d say a professional level.
Alison Jones: That’s so… and I think you’re so right that when people come to us and talk about having a book, they’re thinking about what it’s going to be like to have a book and almost a hundred percent of people would not think about what actually is the process of it and how valuable that is.
David Sinkinson: And I think it’s just one of those things that even when I look back on our startup journey and the experience we had, I was very outcome focused and I miss it. I miss the people. I miss the day to day. Even though it was very stressful at times, I miss that time. And it’s a fleeting moment, right?
You know, and in my life and maybe I’ll start another company someday, but it’ll never be the same as what I had then. So I think it’s really, really important too. It probably comes back to the whole, like, being in the moment kind of thing, but I really think overall it’s like, don’t be outcome focused, enjoy the process. The process is living, the process is what you’re doing. Make sure you’re enjoying that time. And I would argue that, and maybe this is a bit harsh, but if you’re not enjoying writing the book, then maybe you shouldn’t be writing it because I think that’ll come out in your words, in your voice, in your tone.
And I think you have to be, you have to have that book in you before you start. And if you do, I really think it should be an enjoyable process.
Alison Jones: Yes, it’s a great challenge, isn’t it? And there is something as well about, you know, the way that we so often turn to generative AI for writing because we want an output. And rather than realizing the value of the process of the writing, which is the outcome perhaps.
David Sinkinson: Yes. You know, that’s a really good point. That’s a really, really good point. And I, so didn’t use any AI for my book. I’ll just say that right now.
Alison Jones: Look, you can tell, it’s your voice. Absolutely. Yes.
David Sinkinson: It’s very consistent, right? I think generative AI can be helpful. Not for editing the words specifically, but for trying to understand if your message is on point and consistency in some of these other points.
But that’s a really good point though, that it actually, I would argue it really robs you of the fun of the writing experience. And it also I think, discourages you from actually writing because when you know that there’s a tool that’s that effective, that can spit something out, that can really sound sort of like you, oh man, it’s so tempting.
It’s right there.
Alison Jones: So tempting, that’s it. Yes.
Good. I think it’s really important we said that actually because I think, you know, people don’t realize just how valuable the process of writing is until they’ve done it. Once they’ve done that, they’re like, well, cool. Why would I delegate that?
David Sinkinson: Yes, that’s the fun. You know, it’s if you were to start a business and you start delegating the things about the business that you find interesting, like why? Then, what are you doing there?
Alison Jones: What are you saving time for if you’re giving away best stuff? Yes.
David Sinkinson: You can just sit there and feel anxious instead. You know, to me, it’s a silly thing but I will admit though too, again, it is very tempting, but I think focusing on that experience as being very positive.
Alison Jones: It also means you can stand up credibly and talk about your book.
David Sinkinson: You know what’s in it, right? Like…
Alison Jones: …yes, that’s quite important…
David Sinkinson: yes. There was that survey of ChatGPT ages ago, a couple months ago, I think that was like, you know, people who had to write a paper using ChatGPT, people who had to write a paper using Google, and people who wrote a paper, just the old fashioned way. And the people who used ChatGPT had no idea what was in their stuff because they didn’t write it.
It’s ridiculous to be like they…
Alison Jones: …never touched the sides of their brain. Yes.
David Sinkinson: Yes. Just flew right in one ear out the other. They have no idea what happened.
Alison Jones: Terrifying.
I always ask guests as well for a recommendation. Now you’ve already given us one, which is marvelous. Do you want to stick that or do you want to twist?
Well, I’ll leave that as a freebie in content of the episode. I will say for any business folks out there, I mean, actually I’d give it a couple I guess because I also said Hard Thing About Hard Things.
Yes.
David Sinkinson: I’m just looking at my bookshelf, and I think, like it’s hard for me not to call out The Lean Startup, throughout my book it’s like the inspiration a lot of the time for writing the book. We gave this book to our employees when they started.
Alison Jones: This is Eric Ries in case anybody’s wondering
David Sinkinson: Eric Reis, yes. Lean Startup, Eric Reis is also a phenomenal entrepreneur, a very, very interesting guy. But I really think that that book was revolutionary. The whole lean process like lean startups, lean innovation, these sorts of things. It’s really, really good.
I actually have, if you go to startupdifferent.com/bookshelf we actually have a series of books that we recommend for entrepreneurs who are interested. Shamelessly, they’re ones that I have read, but they are very, very good. And they gave me some really essential tools in my tool belt while running my company to be successful.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. And I love that you, with business books, you get like the double win, don’t you? If you’re writing a business book, then A, they help you with your business and B they help you write a really good book as well. So yes.
David Sinkinson: Yes, I mean you, know, it’s important to read, right? You get exposed to different writing styles and all that good kind of stuff.
Alison Jones: Yes, absolutely. You learn about the craft through reading.
David Sinkinson: Yes. You know, I’ll say one thing that really changed me. My publisher told me this before I wrote the book, they said, you’re never going to read a book the same again after you’ve written one.
Alison Jones: Yes, you read like a writer.
David Sinkinson: It’s very true. I’m reading a fun series called, I’ve never read it before. It’s a little bit older, but it’s called Red Rising. I can’t remember the author’s name. That’s going to drive me nuts. Oh geez. That’s crazy.
Anyway but it’s really fun and it’s like a fun sort of, you know, sci-fi book series. But it is interesting as I read it you know, you kind of can identify the reasons why the author positions the way they said this or that in a way that is meant to draw your emphasis.
I find I’m surprised a lot less in books now. I know what they’re setting up. I know it’s coming, you know, it’s interesting.
So fun. Yes.
Alison Jones: Yes. Love it. And if Peter wants, if Peter wants to find out, or indeed anybody wants to find out about Startup Different, about what you do, about the books, about the podcast, where should they go?
David Sinkinson: Yes.
Obviously startupdifferent.com everything is in there if you’re interested in the book. If you want to order the book and get on Amazon, that’s the best place to go. Search Startup Different, you’ll find it.
Yes, our podcast is wherever we get podcasts, so that’s easy enough.
And if you go on social media, you know, the Instagrams and the tiktoks and all that kind of fun stuff, you’ll find, you can see I’m very motivated about that. You’ll find basically all of our different handles @startupdifferent.
And you can see we do a lot of the podcast posts through there, so you’d see some of the other content that we’re talking about these days.
Alison Jones: Fantastic. It has been such fun talking to you, David. Thank you so much for being such a great guest, hosts make great guests.
David Sinkinson: Hope I did well.
Alison Jones: Top, would recommend.
David Sinkinson: Very good.
Alison Jones: And congratulations again on the Business Book Awards Win. It’s terrific news, very richly deserved, and I’ll put those links that you’ve just mentioned up on the show notes @extraordinarybusinessbooks.com and highly recommend the book too.
David Sinkinson: Great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here, and it was a lot of fun.
