‘We don’t understand much about hope, and yet people are crying out for it from leaders.’
If you ever hear someone dismissively say ‘hope is not a strategy’, be sure to introduce them to Ian Pettigrew, author of Hope is a Strategy. He will disabuse them of the idea that hope is simply wishful thinking and introduce them to a more muscular, active concept: hope that can be – MUST be – wielded with rigour and realism.
In Ian’s book (quite literally), hope isn’t rainbows and unicorns; if it is, you don’t get away with that twice. Neither is it about ignoring reality until something good happens. Strategic hope is gritty and demanding, but it’s also the most powerful force in the world for both personal and organizational transformation.
We also talk about the practicalities of applying this theory of hope to the business of writing a book, both the inner game and the getting of the words onto the page. So if you’re feeling a bit hopeless about your own project, this is for you.
Hope is a Strategy website: https://hope.tips/
Ian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianpettigrew/
Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/
The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com
Link for submitting your clip for Episode 500: https://bit.ly/45RfpdY
Alison Jones: I am here today with Ian Pettigrew, who is a positive psychology coach who’s witnessed the power of hope in his own life and of those he works with. He coaches leaders around the world, helping them to address the global hope crisis and put hope into action for themselves, for their teams and for their organizations.
And he’s the author of Hope is a Strategy: Why realistic optimism is essential for effective leadership, which is a great, great title.
So first of all, welcome Ian. It’s great to have you here.
Ian Pettigrew: Oh, brilliant. Thank you Alison. It’s really fantastic to be on here with you.
Alison Jones: We’re going to start with that title because it is really resonant, isn’t it? And oh my goodness, you know, we thought it was pertinent when you came up with it, but it feels ever more resonant now. What do you mean by it?
Ian Pettigrew: Well, there’s layers and layers to it. So, and I thought long and hard about the title. So hope is something that has really resonated with me for years. It’s cropped up in my life at loads of times and hope, I get a little bit irritated if I’m being honest, because we use it in a really lazy, sort of wishy-washy way.
You know, like, you know when an email says ‘I hope this finds you well’, you know, and actually it’s like it’s a bit of a bin fire of a day or ‘I hope this happens’. So we use it in a really wishy-washy way, but hope in psychology is a really active pursuit of a better future. So nothing could be further than the truth when people sort of dismiss hope as quite vague.
And, so hope as an individual activity is really powerful. And we might talk a bit later about my recovery from a motorbike accident or you know, whether it’s a big thing or a little thing or whatever it is. Yes. But it’s like hope is really powerful on an individual level. However, hope, even though it can be an individual pursuit, I really believe it is a game for two or more players and hope can really come alive in a group, you know, in community, in organizations because we can do a lot with each other to really amplify and magnify hope.
And sorry, this is the world’s longest answer to why the book title, but it’s because…. so, I’m obsessed with hope individually, but also in a piece of research that Gallop did looking at what people say they want from leaders. Hope came out as the number one thing that people wanted from leaders all around the world. And that’s leaders in businesses, charities, society, families, churches, you know, faith-based organizations everywhere people are saying they’re looking for hope.
And that was particularly more marked amongst younger people who basically said, we’ve got more of our lives to live and we really want hope. So I both did research and wrote the book partly to educate people about hope because it’s a really empowering lens for people, but also to try and fill this gap between if we don’t understand much about hope and yet people crying out for it from leaders, what can we do as leaders if we don’t even understand it? So how can we find it ourselves as leaders and then really help other people find hope? So that’s why the book title and why the premise. I’m absolutely obsessed with hope.
Alison Jones: And it’s clever too because it speaks to what people say as a throw away, ‘hope is not a strategy’. We are speaking in the week or so after Mark Carney said at Davos ‘nostalgia is not a strategy’, and those two words are not often used together. What is strategic about hope?
Ian Pettigrew: Because it’s a pursuit of a better future. So one of the things I’ve created through my own academic research, but that I’ve shared in the book and I’m sharing openly on a website is something I call the Hope Play Sheet, which is to provide a really simple coaching and self-coaching tool that helps people find hope.
And I’m really proud to see people using that in lots of different things, but it’s a really simple process about getting clarity about what it is that you’re hoping for. Thinking through all the options, all the ways that you could get there, thinking about the obstacles that could get in the way, then intentionally coming up with a plan and then making that decision about how you’re going to engage, how you’re going to show up. So it’s an acronym for hope.
If that’s not strategic, I don’t know what is. It’s about coming up with a vision for the future, for what you’re hoping for. It’s about evaluating all the alternative ways you could get there, all the things that could get in the way, figuring out the path through it for you. And then also figuring about what is often the difficult bit, how are we going to show up and do it?
And so, I sort of look and think, what can be more strategic than that?
Alison Jones: And that piece about really honestly looking the problems, the things that you’re going to face, the obstacles in the face. That’s the whole point about realistic optimism, isn’t it? Which I think is a great phrase.
Ian Pettigrew: Oh, well thank you. And it’s like, and I thought long and hard about the book title. I also thought long and hard about the book title because it was a great way of procrastinating on actually writing the book. That’s an entirely different conversation.
Alison Jones: I hear you.
Ian Pettigrew: It’s like, you know, yes, let’s spend the three years thinking of a title and then just 12 months writing it.
But it’s like, I am naturally, if you look at my strengths, I am naturally strategic, I think through things like that. And so, it was a really intentional positioning, but part of it was, a real call out to leaders to think about the tone that they set with people. So was listening to, it was Beth Rigby’s podcast the Sky News political one, the other day, and she was talking about, you know, what happens and we have politicians that promise the earth and, you know, then they get in, elected on a really compelling promise and then they don’t deliver. And then we swing in the opposite direction because we’re disillusioned.
And it strikes me that leaders often have the kind of the go-to default position. So some leaders naturally will engage in toxic positivity. It’s unicorns and rainbows. It’ll promise the earth they will… which is problematic because one is that when you do that, you might win people over the first time and people feel hopeful, but the second time you stand up and try and engage hope, you’ve lost trust. And so, that’s one problem with toxic positivity.
The other one is that you attempt to invalidate people’s opinions. So whenever anybody says, Yes, but what about… it’s almost like they get a resounding like, shut up. You know, don’t be a naysayer. Don’t be a doomster. Absolutely. And it’s like, yes, every cloud. And it’s like, and there’s a real difference, you know my research came from my thesis for my Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology.
So, I really wanted to write a book that was evidence-based, but wasn’t like reading an academic paper. You know, that was actually accessible. So, it’s based on the research and there’s a world of difference between positive psychology and positive thinking. You know, this is not just always look on the bright side.
So leaders can sometimes engage in toxic positivity and that might inspire a very short term blip in hope. But that’s quickly gone. On the other extreme, some leaders go for the doom and gloom. It’s all like, here’s the case for change, the burning platform, let me tell you how bad things are and how difficult things are, and that doesn’t inspire hope either.
And one of the messages, and this came across in my research, my academic research was a thematic analysis called Is Hope a strategy. And having answered that question, it gave me a good premise for the book. And, it was just the fact that being positive and embracing the challenges aren’t opposites. You know, you can actually do both. You can look and say, look, how fantastic could this be? But recognize the difficulties along the way. And one of the things I’d love to do is to get this into the hands of some politicians as well. You know, I’m really pleased to see where the book is landing and I’m, you know, there’s lots of cases where I know it’s making an amazing difference already, even just a few months post-launch.
But I’d love to get this in the hands of some politicians because there’s a subtle shift of behavior that could make a massive difference.
Alison Jones: Yes, at the absolute top levels.
And I do want to talk to you about post-launch as well, but before I do, yes, it’s absolutely based on your master’s research. It’s very rigorous and all the rest of it. It’s also based on lived experience, isn’t it? So just tell us a little bit more about your kind of personal experience of hope that didn’t come easy.
Ian Pettigrew: Well, I guess I’m not unique in people like this, it’s that almost anything we do hope plays a part. So I had a big motorbike accident, 6th of September, 1999 which is where I was on the racetrack, Donington Park. I can name the corner, McLeans and I was doing about a hundred mile an hour, just slowing down and somebody had slowed down on the racing line right in front of me, it was just one of those things. It was unfortunate positioning. So, a Honda, CBR 600 motorbike and myself parted company at about a hundred mile an hour. And the bike bounced a few times along the racetrack. I bounced quite a few times along the racetrack and landed in a heap in the gravel.
The race photographer ran up, took one look at me and I won’t repeat the language they used, I don’t think’s appropriate on the podcast, and they ran off. And then paramedics appeared a little bit later. I attempted to stand up and quickly realized that my left leg when I looked down wasn’t as it should be. So I broke my femur completely. My left femur, snapped it, really badly and my foot was facing backwards, not forwards, sorry, and I broke my collarbone as well.
And just that experience of… it took me months before I could walk again. But even in that difficulty, hope, a belief that things would be okay. Also, the knowledge of what I needed to do to get there and getting off my backside and doing things. That’s what got me to the stage where, you know, I compete in agility with my dog and I can run around, you know, quite happily. I cycle a lot, I’m cycling for an Everest challenge. It’s a combination of all those things.
And I know that the physio would always be surprised when I’ve turned up. And the kind of like you’ve done everything. It’s like, yes, of course I have. It’s because sitting at home thinking, right, I’m seeing the physio in another couple of weeks, they can do things to me that does not work.
So, this concept of hope in all of those elements is what helps to get us there. Even, you know, like you, Border Collie fan, we’ve got a Border Collie, we compete in agility. He’s had a really bad agility injury. He slipped a couple of times and he is had an Iliopsoas strains that most dogs don’t get back to agility from. He has, we’ve been competing again recently and he’s winning quite a lot of trophies.
And so, even with him, it’s like, right, can we get him back to agility because he enjoys it. Let’s give it our best shot. Let’s look at all the things we need to do to get there. And he, like me, has been disciplined in doing the exercises that the physio has given me.
So hope, it is, you know, it relates to goal setting, it relates to empowerment, motivation, all sorts of other things. But I found it a really useful lens and an empowering lens as a way of making sense of things and hope makes a difference. And even in people that are terminally ill, you know, we’ve got to be really careful about the research. But with cancer patients or people that terminally ill, hope can extend life expectancy a bit and reduce anxiety and depression. So, and…
Alison Jones: … improve the quality of it.
Ian Pettigrew: Absolutely. So, massive caveat there. You know, hope involves, within a reason, playing the hand that you’ve been dealt. Hope cannot cure cancer. However, hope, you know that ability to focus on the best outcome you can have and to take control of the things can do to get there.
Absolutely. Is really powerful and I’ve experienced that and I’ve seen it in lots of other people.
Alison Jones: Yes, and it’s such a beautiful illustration of almost like the best of writing a business book like this because you’re bringing in really rigorous research, your own or you know, desk research from other people. You’re bringing in lived experience that you could really speak to from a sort of emotional engagement point of view. And you’re bringing in professional experience because you’ve worked with so many different organizations doing this.
So, it’s that sort of trifecta of evidence isn’t it? That really gives you substance in a book
Ian Pettigrew: Well, I was going to say I agree, but I’ll probably should say thank you instead. Yes, that’s what I wanted because I’m always, well, I’m a three trick pony that strengths coach and strengths coaching and hope, you know, that’s what I do. And the coach in me is always really wary about giving people an answer.
And, that was really difficult in writing a book. You know, it’s kind of, I’m really wary because my answer to most questions is, well, it depends. And, so that made it an absolute challenge. But I really wanted to write something that wasn’t just about my personal experience, because I’m conscious. You know, in research we often talk about, you know, n equals, how many people were involved in the research? And there’s often a massive criticism of research were n equals one. In other words, this is what’s worked for me. Therefore, you know, you should do the same.
So things like, is it the book, The 5:00 AM Miracle, you know, written by somebody who gets up at 5:00 AM does the most important thing and it’s changed their life. Getting up at 5:00 AM does not work for me. You know, that would, whenever I’ve tried that it does not change my life for the better. So, that’s the reason why I wanted to try and make it really inclusive and offer a broad range of things.
But it has, it’s been really enjoyable to codify that as well. It’s helped me in my thinking, but also to get it out there, you know, and to just not make it something that is in my work and conversations, but to actually get it there much more broadly.
Alison Jones: Well, so let’s talk about that writing process because it’s something that we are very much here for on that podcast, as you know. And it’s always interesting talking particularly to coaches, because what you do is co-created in the moment with your clients. You know, it’s responsive, it’s reactive, it’s very experiential.
And, so that point about codifying, what did you find hard, what did you enjoy? What did you notice about that process of making a book out of this intellectual property?
Ian Pettigrew: What did I find hard? Almost everything.
Yes. Yes. So let’s go back one. So I had a difficult decision to make because… right, let me be really honest here. So I think some of my academic pursuit is partly because I love learning and partly because I want to know, and partly because I want to close research gaps, partly because as a lad, as a daft lad from a council estate in Speke in Liverpool, I think there’s always a little bit of me wanting to prove myself, if I’m being really honest. And I can’t believe I’ve just said that out loud to everybody.
But there’s a little bit of, sort of almost the, right, let me get more letters after my name and then you’ll know, you know, that I’m okay. So there’s a little bit of that…
Alison Jones: …all around the country people are nodding Ian, so thank you. It’s the sort of thing we don’t say often enough, and it’s there.
Ian Pettigrew: Well absolutely but if we keep things like that to ourselves, I think we kid everybody else that, you know, it’s simple for everybody and it isn’t.
So my plan with my master’s was to then turn it into a PhD. So I deliberately made my research bigger than it needed. And partly that was sort of wanting to pursue, just the pursuit to become Dr. Pettigrew. And it has got a ring about it, but I’ve actually decided not to pursue that.
And one of the things, one of the difficulties was that if I’d have published, I have not published my research as a paper. And one of the reasons is that the publication process is incredibly slow and I would’ve probably taken, it could have taken 18 months, two years to get my paper published in journal. And the journals insist that you haven’t published that elsewhere. So, it would’ve meant that the book writing couldn’t really start or take place till after journal publication.
So I made an active decision, which is actually, do you know what? I want this to be more accessible to people. But, there was a little bit of, that was a difficult decision because it almost balancing ego, kudos, academic progression. So that was the first difficulty.
The second challenge, what I found difficult was that I am not a natural writer, and you know this, but others won’t, which is that I, so the reason I knew you was that I have listened to this podcast for years. And that’s how I first started to hear about you, and I heard you talk about the writing workshop at Gladstone’s Library. So I came along to that thinking, well, if I do that, at least I can prove to myself that I’m not a writer and I can give up this thing I’m hoping for. Having known, I’ve given it my best.
And Alison, you gave me what I didn’t want. You told me that I could write effectively and I came away and then did the business book proposal challenge, which was absolutely amazing. But I find the process of writing hard.
Alison Jones: Wait a minute, whoa, whoa. We’ll back up. You didn’t just do the business book proposal challenge, Ian, you won it. I think it’s important to make that clear.
Ian Pettigrew: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And that gave me hope.
And, it’s interesting, like what one of the things with hope is that there will be things that give us hope, and sometimes there are glimmers. Sometimes there are glimmers of hope and because of the deficit discourse, you know, the fact that we tend to notice what’s wrong and talk about that, and we tend to ignore what’s right. Quite often the glimmers get ignored.
And so, you know, we’ve got to look out for them and spot them and amplify them. And magnify them. And that’s one of the things that we can do for other people as well. Which you’ve done, just done beautifully for me, which is, hang on, you didn’t just participate, you won it and it’s like, so that looking out for glimmers of hope and magnifying them can be really, really powerful.
Alison Jones: But when you call them glimmers of hope, it feels really sort of positive. And the thing about glimmers of hope is that they often require of us a great deal of hard work. And they often raise fear, just in the way you’re talking about, you know, I came to prove that I didn’t need to do this, to let myself off the hook and you took away, I mean, I’d like to think I didn’t just tell you you could write, I showed you, and that you came of going, oh no, I can do this. And, that’s great. And it puts us back on the hook, doesn’t it?
Ian Pettigrew: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s like, so, even after that, I didn’t find the writing process simple. It wasn’t the easiest thing I’ve done. I’m delighted. I would happily do it again. It’s absolutely the right decision. I’m so pleased I wrote it. I am ecstatic about the book and I’m really proud of myself as well. You know, absolutely delighted.
And I did get into a bit of a workflow that sort of worked for me, as well. But yes, there were loads of things along the way that gave me hope and actually I applied the principles from the book to writing the book itself. I kept using the Hope Play Sheet in terms of writing, because if I’ve got a process that I know works, why would I not practice what I preach and use that?
So, what did I find difficult, challenging? A lot. What did I enjoy? I’ve loved the end product. I’ve kind of, you know, for those on video, there’s a poster of the book as a canvas printed behind me, I’ve got a copy on my desk. I smile every time I see it. When the books arrived in the post, the author copies, I’m glad I recorded an unboxing video because I was speechless. You know, it was like watching a child on Christmas day. I was just so pleased.
And so it’s all worth it. Like I went to a networking event in Newcastle last week, and somebody that had bought it and ordered it, brought it along for me to sign, you know, it’s like, and then my book is being used in Ethiopia, you know, with a charity that I’m involved with. I’ve been working with people this week in a workshop and I could leave them with a copy of my book.
I can’t repeat them because of confidentiality, but the stories I’ve heard about where people are using it, including in some of the most unimaginable difficult situations, and it’s helping them. Just, you know, some of the stories I’ve heard, if you’d have told me, Ian, you can sit down and write all these words and then it’s going to help one person, it would be worth it.
But actually what’s happened is that it’s already been a hundred times that. So what I’ve enjoyed is that sense of pride of seeing it and getting there, but more than anything, it making a difference. And it…
Alison Jones: …that…
Ian Pettigrew: …say one more…
Alison Jones: …yes, go for it.
Ian Pettigrew: Can I say one more difficult bit? And again, it’s possibly an over disclosure.
I don’t like being the center of attention. And I’ve had to lean into that a little bit. So, you know, when it comes to my book launch, was just the most amazing celebration, but it was like an evening all about Ian. And when I go to places and people are like, will you sign this and can we get a selfie with you? There’s a little bit of that, that personally, I’ve got to get over myself because I don’t like being the center of attention. So that’s the other thing. But I’m now, I’m leaning into it, and I think I’m secretly starting to love it.
So, when somebody asks, so again, massive over disclosure, but when somebody now asks for a selfie with a book, there’s a little bit of me as a, Hmm, what really, just little old me. And then there’s a bit of me as like, oh yes, how fantastic is this?
Clearly, I’d never confess that out loud.
Alison Jones: I love that we’re actually saying all the things that all writers think, but never dare say. That’s brilliant.
But I think your point about this book making a difference in the world, that’s something that people listening, who are right at the start of this journey, can really hang on to, and you’ve expressed it beautifully.
If I was to ask you, speaking to that person who’s right at the start of this, they don’t even know if they can do it yet, what would be your one best tip for them?
Ian Pettigrew: You. And, I mean that, so, what got me here, I might get the, Your Book Means Business. Is that the correct title?
Alison Jones: This Book Means Business.
Ian Pettigrew: This Book Means Business by Alison Jones. That really helps you focus on why are you writing this and what do you want this book to do for you? So your why? The Proposal Challenge, about all the strategic stuff about framing it right, was amazing.
But also, I’m sorry. I mean this genuinely, if it were not for you. I would not have this book out in the world. I’ve got no doubt about that. Okay.
So just, just sit with that.
It’s like, so that’s why I say ,you.
The other thing though is once you’ve figured out why, and I would, I’d really think it’s worth putting a lot of effort into Why, how does it compete with other titles? What do you want it to do? How does it fit in with your life? You know, all those really important strategic things, that I’m really pleased, you know, because then everything then fitted.
But the second then is think about what works for you as a writing process and it’ll be different for everybody. So, in the end, what I would do is, you know, I get easily overwhelmed and I can overwhelm myself. So having clarity of breaking the book into lots of little chunks, you know, that I could write, and then often for each chunk I would dictate, you know, my rubbish first draft would be, I would dictate and get a few words on the page. And then, because I was then looking at 20 words, it was no longer a blank page and I could then go and write.
And sometimes, I would go to write at Gladstone’s Library or in one of the libraries in Manchester, or depending on what it was, sometimes I’d go and write in a really busy coffee shop, where it was noisy and there was lots going on but it wasn’t noise that was related to me.
And so, once I’d sort of done some experiments and figured a bit about me, I then had a process that worked. And I’m really conscious that what worked for me probably wouldn’t work for somebody else.
Alison Jones: Yes but the leaning into the process of discovering that and yes, rather than just trying to sit at your desk and wondering why it’s not working. That’s a great tip. Brilliant.
I always ask my guests to recommend a book as well. Ian, what book would you recommend us?
Ian Pettigrew: It probably…. yours, obviously.
But other than that, the other one that actually probably leans into the conversation we’ve just had is Eric Ries, The Lean Startup. And it’s all about hypothesis testing and little experiments to find stuff and to figure stuff out. What’s the kind of quickest, dirtiest, cheapest experiment you could do that gives you the answer that you need?
And so, even with like a writing process. You could get to the end of a writing a book and think, right, I’ve written 55, 50,000 words, and now I’ve figured out what I’d do differently next time.
Or you can do some really intentional experiments, try some different ways, and before you finish chapter one, you’ve actually got an idea of your writing process.
So, Eric Ries, the Lean Startup, has been massively influential in just loads of different areas of my life.
Alison Jones: Yes, it’s so good for writing, for work. Yes, brilliant principle. Thank you.
Now, Ian, if people want to find out more about you, more about Hope is a Strategy, more about your work, where should they go?
Ian Pettigrew: LinkedIn is a really good place to be. I’m quite active on LinkedIn, so as Ian B Pettigrew and Hope is a Strategy, has also got a company page on there where I’m sharing some resources around hope. Also on Instagram you’ll find Hope is a Strategy as well.
But I’ve also got a companion website to the book, which is hope.tips.
Alison Jones: Oh, nice. Oh, I like the suffix.
Ian Pettigrew: It took me ages to find, I think I could buy hope.com for about a hundred thousand pounds or something. I can’t remember. And I wanted a really short URL, you know, I didn’t want to be telling you it would be Hope Underscore is underscore the strategy books. You know, something…
So I spent ages and then I found hope.tips was available and so that’s a place where I’m sharing resources and the Hope Play Sheet that I mentioned as well is available on there to download as a PDF without registering or providing any information.
But LinkedIn, where I’m on there as Ian B Pettigrew is a really good place to start.
Alison Jones: I’ll put the LinkedIn profile, the page for the book and the resource page for the book, which I absolutely love that suffix, that’s so clever. I’ll put those all up on the show notes @extraordinarybusinessbooks.com.
Ian, thank you. You’ve brought me closer to tears today than I’m accustomed to in these podcast interviews, but I forgive you and yes, no, it’s been wonderful talking to you. Congratulations on the launch of Hope is a Strategy.
Ian Pettigrew: Thank you so much Alison.
It’s really important, one of the things we can do with hope. Is hope in community means we can point out to other people the positives in what they’ve done, their strengths and their contribution. So, it would be really deficient of me if I didn’t do that with you.
So apologies, but thank you very much and it’s been an absolute pleasure to be a guest on the podcast that started my journey.
Alison Jones: Oh, that’s a wonderful way to finish it. Thank you, Ian, so much.
Ian Pettigrew: Thanks Alison.
