Episode 58 – How to Have a Good Day with Caroline Webb

Caroline WebbCaroline Webb writes about the everyday, the little things that make a big difference to how we feel: being interrupted, boring meetings, feeling stressed, late-night emails, giving directions to someone who’s lost. So on one level, How to Have a Good Day is an everyday book. What makes it remarkable is the way that she explores these everyday experiences through a rigorous research-based framework encompassing psychology, behavioural economics and neuroscience. So now not only do you know why you feel so bad when someone interrupts you, you know why, which also allows you to deal with it and continue having a good day.

It’s a great example of one of the most important skills in business book writing: synthesising experience, research and stories to create a distinctive framework that not only helps people understand why things are as they are but gives them tools for making things better.

‘Take a step back and think, “What is my system of thought here? What is my grand theory of how this all knits together?”‘ advises Caroline, and you can find out more about she achieved it herself in this fascinating interview. Also revealed, her writing playlist. I guarantee it’s not what you expect.


Caroline on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Caroline_Webb_

Caroline’s website: http://carolinewebb.co/

The Haribo story-telling technique for long journeys with kids: http://www.alisonjones.com/blog/2017/4/the-haribo-story-telling-method-it-might-just-save-your-life-on-your-next-long-trip

Alison Jones:                        Hello, and welcome to the Extraordinary Business Book Club. It’s great to be here today with Caroline Webb. Now Caroline is CEO of Sevenshift, a firm that shows people how to use insights from behavioural science to improve their working life. Her book on that topic, How To Have a Good Day, which is just a brilliant title, is published in 16 languages, more than 60 countries. She’s a senior advisor to McKinsey where she was previously a partner. Caroline, welcome to the show.

Caroline Webb:                  Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here.

Alison Jones:                        It’s really good to have you here. You were recommended by Grace Marshall and when she said, “You have to have Caroline on the show” … she said you’ve got a great way of mixing scientific research and studies with very easy to relate to examples of everyday life. When I read the book I knew exactly what she meant. Was that a really conscious decision when you sat down to write How To Have a Good Day?

Caroline Webb:                  Oh, very much so. Absolutely. There’s so much great popular science out there and listeners will no doubt know Thinking Fast and Slow, and Predictably Irrational and so on. What was happening for me was that in my client work I was using behavioural science, using neuroscience, psychology, behavioural economics and showing people how to actually apply it in everyday life. That means change the way they were thinking about their to-do list, their schedules, the way they go about every conversation they have and so on.

Some of my clients were saying, “Well, have you got a book that you can recommend to us that does this translation of the science into practice?” I was struggling a little bit actually. That was one of the reasons that I became aware that there was probably a need, certainly a market, for a book that actually took the science and really made that translation as vivid and accessible as possible. That was absolutely the genesis of the book.

My background, I’d always been very interested in taking an evidence-based approach to doing my coaching and training and leadership development work. I’d always used studies to back up whatever it was I was suggesting to people that they might try as ways to change their approach at work. I just always noticed that their eyes would widen a little bit, they’d be a little bit more receptive, especially those who were a bit sceptical about anything which was about behavioural change. If I were able to really given them something that was rigorous and clear as a rational and that appealed to their analytical brain.

Yes, that sense of a need in a market really grew up over several years before I actually started putting pen to paper.

Alison Jones:                        You talked about economics and the different areas that you’ve drawn from. That is really interesting. Obviously your background is economics, particularly behavioural economics. Then the book really pulls together neuroscience and psychology. You explain a little bit about how your interest in those overlap. It’s almost like a Venn diagram, isn’t it? In the middle. The stuff that changes how you experience the world, it’s the intersection of those three. That’s a lot of really high chewy academic concepts. Just tell me how you got into all that and how you synthesised them together.

Caroline Webb:                  Well, I was a pretty grumpy economist by the time…

Alison Jones:                        Most of them are.

Caroline Webb:                  Yeah. I was especially annoyed with behavioural aspects not being as much to the fore as I really wanted them. That’s actually why I went into consulting. I thought, “Well, if what I’m interested in is the behavioural aspects of understanding how humans behave and what helps us be at our best then perhaps I need to get closer to the coal face.” I went from a public policy job into management consulting doing organisational change, cultural change, leadership development, and so forth.

I very quickly also realised that a lot of the research that I was most interested in was actually happening in adjacent disciplines in psychology and neuroscience. Although, it’s amazing; if you have a really solid grounding in statistics and in academic work in general, you understand … It’s not as much of a leap as you might imagine to pick up a paper in another discipline if it’s talking about the same sorts of issues as the ones that you’re used to thinking about. There’s a lot of terminology, though, and there’s a lot of finding a way through.

I did do a course in psychology and a course in neuroscience to give some structure to my reading. Yeah, it was a really intense few years. I suppose I just really wanted to immerse myself in all that was going on. Now looking back that was a very .. I couldn’t read fiction in the evenings anymore which has never happened to me in my life. I was always a reader. I was just reading so much that actually my head was pretty full. That was over five or six years doing that intense reading. Now it’s settled back into a bit more of a normal level of consumption.

Alison Jones:                        You can read a bit of trash on the weekend now?

Caroline Webb:                  Yes.

Alison Jones:                        That’s good. Everybody needs that. I love though what you say about that idea that the interesting ideas were happening just over the fence in a field that was nearby, looking at the same stuff but from a different angle. I think from a background in scholarly publishing as well I think when you’ve really penetrated a field there’s lovely stuff that’s going on deep in the niche in a sense that a lot of academics lose themselves in.

But so much of the really cutting edge stuff, the really interesting stuff, the applied stuff, if you like, is at the intersections, isn’t it? The edges where you get the interdisciplinary area.

Caroline Webb:                  Absolutely. If you think about what insight is, it’s usually a new way of combining ideas, so that you’re seeing a new connection, some new link between things that perhaps were already on your mind but now you see, “Ah, this is how I put them together.” Of course, you’re slightly more likely (I say, ‘of course’; it’s a huge area of scholarly research in itself)… in anything, if you expose yourself to new ways of thinking.

Actually reading around your own discipline, I find it really helps to give you new perspective on things that you think you already know. That was certainly the case for me. I know that in my own small way. It’s very much true for researchers in the field who are working at the intersections between neuroscience, psychology, and economics because they’re able to take a complementary perspective on issues that we really care about.

The economists tend to take a more theoretical approach. Psychologists tend to take a more observational approach. Neuroscientists tend to take perhaps a more biological approach. These are simplifying words in themselves. I can see all of my behavioural science friends throwing their hands up in horror. The point is you’ve got these different perspectives on why we feel upset when someone interrupts us. It’s helpful. It’s really helpful because it gets us to a deeper level of understanding.

Certainly that helped me in writing the book because it meant that if there was a big argument in one discipline about what exactly was going on.. For example, when we feel empathy towards another person. It was a huge debate in neuroscience about whether mirror neurons exist or not. You can go to psychology and say, “Well, actually, there’s something called Theory of Mind that nobody really disagrees with, the idea that we can imagine someone else’s thoughts.” Just practically it also helped me in writing the book to find the most reliable and noncontroversial way of explaining a certain phenomenon.

Alison Jones:                        That’s really interesting. It reminds me of Mark Levy who was on a few weeks back and he was talking about that sense of overlaying different areas of your life because he said you’ll have blinders in one field and there will be blinders in another but they won’t be in the same place. You can use one to illuminate the other, which I thought was nicely put.

Caroline Webb:                  Nicely put.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, right. Tell me a little bit about the structure of the book as well. You’ve got the pillars of what’s going on. You introduce the science bit at the beginning and the three theories that everything is based on. Then you’ve got the different ways in which it applies. I noticed that in your company you’ve got those seven shifts that the company name is based on. How is the relationship between the model there? Is it a reworking? Or is it a straight forward reinterpretation? How does it work?

Caroline Webb:                  Well, first off there’s a link between the book and the name of my company Sevenshift. I think you may be the first person who’s ever actually spotted it.

Alison Jones:                        But it’s the perspective of this podcast, isn’t it? It’s the book and the business together.

Caroline Webb:                  Yes, exactly. I love it. Sevenshift, I like the name for my own business because it sort of talked to me about everyday change, seven days a week. Perhaps even the seven ages of man. The sense of continuous change and how we navigate that. The name for the company came before the name for the book. The common thread was that I was becoming more and more interested in the everyday.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the things that was happening was that my clients were asking me to give more follow-up guidance on reading material for the work that we were doing in person. One of the things that I was starting to become very interested in was the small stuff. Sometimes I went with people helping them think about their career and the next best move for them. More and more I just found that what was really holding people back or what was going to allow them to go to the next level was the everyday.

That thread was what really joined the company name to the book. Then as I was structuring the book I found myself thinking, “Well, I think that there are really seven big themes” and I thought, “Oh my gosh. Am I being so cheesy here to choose seven?” But you know, priorities, productivity, relationships, thinking, influence, resilience, energy, I thought, “Yeah, you know, they really are the seven things I want to talk about.” Then of course it started to feel like it really did tie together.

Alison Jones:                        It’s almost like you re-validated your model from the ground up again?

Caroline Webb:                  Yeah. Absolutely. When I’m doing workshops with companies they might want a workshop that covers all seven things and touches on all of them a little rather than a particular area. That iteration between the writing and the clients that’s just been central to the way this whole project came together over the years. The client work has just made the writing so much more practical than my other ways have been. The writing has really sharpened my ideas as I’m working with clients. It’s been great.

Alison Jones:                        That’s something that we talk about a lot here. How the process of writing helps you, as the writer, just as much as the reading of your writing helps the reader. Just tell me a little bit more about how that worked for you.

Caroline Webb:                  Well, in a way, this book is a little bit of a life’s work. It’s pulling together everything that I think is interesting and useful, really, truly, applicable for the everyday person in their everyday lives. It was very broad. I had to work hard to think, “Well, what’s the simplest and most elegant collection of ideas? What do people really need to know?”

Often what I’ve been doing, for years I’ve been talking about this study or that study. In order to write a book you really need a synthesis. You need a way to put the ideas together that won’t just seem like a huge long laundry list of fascinating experiments. You need a governing principle or some sense of the themes that knit the book together.

A lot of the work was actually thinking, “Well, what are the real underlying scientific things here that I can write about in a way that won’t be overwhelming even if people have almost zero interest in the science?” They just want to know that it’s evidence-based. That’s why that section at the start pulls out these three cross-cutting themes from across all of the literature. That’s what took time and work.

It all took time and work but that’s what took a lot of the intellectual effort. It was sort of an audacious and ridiculous goal to try and summarise behavioural economics, behavioural neuroscience, and behavioural psychology but I knew I needed to do it to give people a backbone. It’s just made me so much clearer when I’m working with these ideas with companies and individuals. I’d recommend it to anyone to take a step back and think, “What is my system of thought here? What is my grand theory of how this all knits together?” It really helps the reader and it helps you use these ideas in the real world.

Alison Jones:                        Let’s just dig into that a bit more because it is fascinating. That idea of what is my unifying theory? What is my model here? Give us a bit more nuts and bolts of that: is it writing and understanding? Do you draw things out? How do you think and translate that into something that conceptualises what you’re then going to write about?

Caroline Webb:                  Well, I will say that this is something that I think … How do I say? In all my years as a management consultant, you see people with a lot of different types of strengths. I think I always had a leaning towards this kind of synthesis of complex ideas. I enjoy it.

I enjoy looking across 10 papers that look like they totally disagree with each other and just really trying to understand, “Well, what is the core idea here that everybody agrees on? Where really is the disagreement?” How can I actually convey that in simple language in a way that’s not just getting excited about, ‘Oh, look. I’ve read all these papers’ but actually what is interesting for someone who is not in the field?

That would be not a bad place to start is to just look across perhaps a complex set of inputs and say, “Okay, what is the common thread here? Where are the differences or the outliers? What do I think about those?” It’s actually a very interesting intellectual question to say, “Well, how do you do this?” It’s something that I feel comes quite naturally.

I also think that the other way, if I’m sort of interrogating myself about this, the other way that I think it comes together for me is I do find it helpful to get a piece of paper and sketch things out and structure and say, “Okay, there are these three ideas, three blocks, and …” I actually had a wall in my office with Post-It notes that I used to move around to try and help with the visual aspect of that structuring. That might be something that appeals to some of your listeners as well.

Alison Jones:                        I’m laughing because I talk about this. I think I should have shares in Post-It notes. I bang on about them all the time. They’re so brilliant for capturing things and then allowing you to restructure them. It’s Marmite, isn’t it? Some people hate Post-It notes with a passion but I think they’re fabulous for this sort of thing. That’s really interesting. Thank you for giving us a bit more detail on that.

Caroline Webb:                  That was an interesting question. I’ve never had to answer it for myself before so it was fascinating.

Alison Jones:                        I’ve got a couple more questions I want to ask you but when he heard that I was going to interview you one of the people that I work with, Michael Brown, went, “Ooh, I’ve got some questions.” I’m just going to very cheekily going to put something here because I think it’s very interesting for everybody actually. I know and you know that a huge number of people, particularly in the middle of their careers, are just miserable. I don’t know whether it’s just at the moment or it always was the case and we’re just noticing more now. What do you think is going on there? How are people feeling at work these days? What is causing that malaise do you think?

Caroline Webb:                  It’s a great question. Absolutely. A lot of people turn to the Gallup survey of the workplace because it’s so compelling, it’s so international, and if you look across the world only 13%, that’s 13% of employees say that they feel engaged in their work, truly engaged in their work.

Alison Jones:                        That’s horrific, isn’t it?

Caroline Webb:                  It is. Yeah, I live in the US and the numbers are a bit higher here. They tend to come in around 30%. It’s still startling.

Alison Jones:                        That’s quite a lot higher. That’s interesting. That’s more than double, isn’t it?

Caroline Webb:                  Well, it’s interesting. You do see differences across countries and of course some of that is about cultural styling and reporting in answering surveys, language is translated but you never know whether the words land in a different way, in a different country.

I don’t get too overexcited about the differences from country to country but I do think the story is directionally very, very compelling. Obviously it’s one of the things that really motivated me to do the work that I’m doing.

Alison Jones:                        Absolutely. Yeah.

Caroline Webb:                  I had a glorious time, 12 years, at McKinsey and company. Fantastic management consulting firm which sometimes drives a reaction in people, some people love it, some people hate it. It was certainly a wonderful place to be for 12 years.

Even in that role that I had, which was just wonderful, I had a lot of freedom and I had a lot of fantastic peers, I saw a lot of those peers from day to day not being all that happy. They were happy overall. They were definitely appreciative and grateful for the fantastic jobs that they had. But often from day to day, if you really, really looked at their behaviour they were tired, they were exhausted, they were stressed, they were worried. I thought, “Wouldn’t it be great if we could be a bit more deliberate about taking steps to make everyday a little bit more like the better days that we all have?”

I don’t know whether things are truly worse than they’ve ever been. I do think that the complexity of the lives that we lead, the amount of incoming requests that we all receive, I do feel that the ‘always on’ demands have made it harder to draw boundaries between our professional lives and the part that sits outside. I think that everything that we know from the research suggests that our brains really need downtime. They need downtime throughout the day the longer it is since you’ve taken a break, the poorer the quality of your decisions, when you step away from a problem you come back with fresh insight.

We know that breaks are not soft. You need them. I do think that that might be part of the meta story of what’s going on that people aren’t really getting enough time to step away. We need to be a bit more deliberate about relearning how to step away from our work so that we can enjoy it more.

Alison Jones:                        I thought it was fascinating as well what you said about sleep. I think the box set is to blame here. Your points about when you’re deprived of sleep … When I say deprived I mean four to five hours a night is what you said. It’s not nothing but it’s just not enough. At that level of regular sleep you’re performing as though you were slightly drunk the whole time.

Caroline Webb:                  Yes, that was said by a famous professor and it was such a great phrase that I think it’s really caught on as a nice way of summarising the hits to your cognitive capabilities, ie, how smart you are and your emotional capabilities like how all over the place you are.

Alison Jones:                        That’s a lovely example of the way that you translate the tech-speak, the academic bits, into real language that people can get a hold of.

Caroline Webb:                  Yeah, I do try and have a sense of humour about it. This is our lives. We’re living this stuff everyday. You don’t want to be too po-faced about it. You want to really think, “How can I find some joy in this?” Or failing joy, some mild enjoyment.

Alison Jones:                        Yes, absolutely. You made that point as well, didn’t you? When you make a joke and it turns meetings. Suddenly everybody realigns suddenly and it’s a much more positive atmosphere. That’s interesting.

Caroline Webb:                  Exactly.

Alison Jones:                        That’s great. I totally agree actually that there are some societal things going on. I think technology the ‘always on’ thing is really important. I think the economic situation as well. Actually, at the end of the day it comes down to very personal elements about how you choose to face each day, the attitude you choose, and so on. Doesn’t it really?

Caroline Webb:                  Yeah, in some ways that’s sort of ancient wisdom. Occasionally when I’m giving speeches I have someone say, “Isn’t this really what every world religion has said for quite a long time?” Or every world system of thought.

I’ve got no problem with that. I think ancient wisdom is often ancient wisdom because it works. There’s also plenty of ancient wisdom, for example, about gender relations and so on which does not stand the test of time. I do think that there’s a lot we know instinctively to be true. We know that we get a boost when we make time for a conversation with someone. We know that we feel amazing when we bother to stop and give directions to the person who is lost.

What’s happening with the behavioural research is that just we’re building up more of a sense of why these things happen. With that understanding that we do find it inherently rewarding to be kind to other people. It’s one of the quickest ways of boosting our well-being, to bother to do something nice for someone, even if it’s tiny, even if it’s just paying an unexpected compliment.

That’s powerful to know because you might know instinctively that, “Oh, I’ll feel good if I stop and talk to this person” but to know for sure that there’s a reason for it, well, you’re just a bit more likely to do it. Or certainly I am. I think that it just gives you a tiny bit more of a sense that life isn’t random. There’s plenty of things that are random but there are also quite a few things that we control that we’re not actually aware of.

That’s really the central theme of the book is really excavating those little areas and showing you how that can have an impact that adds up day on day into something that really makes your life feel quite different.

Alison Jones:                        One beautiful example that you give of that is singing Donna Summer’s I Feel Love to yourself before you run a workshop. I love that you shared that. I just have such a great picture in my mind. What I want to know is what was your routine for getting yourself into the writing groove? Did you have anything in that?

Caroline Webb:                  Absolutely. The bit of science that sits behind that is that our brains are very associative. You know this in the sense that if you hear a song that reminds you of a great night out then it will boost your mood. You’ll perk up. That’s a non-technical way of talking about something that’s very real. We store those neuron connexions and they can be reactivated to some extent by replaying the cue that you associate with a particular state of mind.

Of course, absolutely. I have a soundtrack for just about everything. Music is my thing. It may not be for everybody else. It certainly works for me. For writing I had a particular playlist. It needed to be a particular type of playlist because your conscious brain, your deliberate system can only do one thing at a time. You really need whatever playlist you are listening to to be something that you can process on automatic so that it doesn’t get in the way of your thinking processes, your conscious thinking processes.

I was listening to Haydn’s string quartet on a loop again and again and again. I knew it so well that I didn’t really need to consciously engage with it but I associated listening to them with, “Oh, I’m writing now.” It was always associated with me putting on my big, noise-cancelling headphones as well. Then after a certain point in the writing process the Haydn had worked for me because it’s very dry and obviously no words in the string quartets and so I wasn’t really having to engage my conscious brain to listen to them.

I did get a bit bored after a certain point and so I switched to a playlist of instrumental deep house music which I know might sound weird to some people but I think there’s a lot of similarity between early classical music and modern electronic music. Same thing, no words, just lots of repetitive beats. To this day, it’s still a playlist that I use that tells me, “Right, I’m going to do some writing” or some deep thinking. It just gives you that little extra push to tell your brain what it is that you want to be doing right now.

Alison Jones:                        I love everything about that and particularly there’s a PhD in there, isn’t there? Just bringing together those two modes… I love the flipping between those two modes, that that sort of classical you could align to the academic mode and then the house music that just being able to make it accessible to people. It’s a lovely metaphor right there.

Caroline Webb:                  Well, actually, I will say, yes and, I will say that I didn’t start reading and researching until really late in the process. A lot of people would say, “Oh, you must be done with the research now.” The thing about science is it just blooming carries on.

Alison Jones:                        Never stops, does it? Please, people, let me catch up.

Caroline Webb:                  Right. There was actually a controversy brewing in two areas of the scientific literature that I was very glad that I was still on top of as the book went to press. Yeah, there was no real complete cut-off. Yes I suppose there was definitely sort of a confluence between the classical and the modern. That was great.

Alison Jones:                        That’s so funny. Now I always ask people for their best tip for somebody who is writing their first business book at the moment. Would yours be the house music thing? Or would you give them something else?

Caroline Webb:                  Oh my gosh. It’s such a lovely question to be asked. Everybody is really different. I do think finding the place that is going to really be your writing place that is really going to be … The setting that brings out your best productivity and your best thinking it really counts for a lot.

I had an idea in the beginning that I would maybe write in cafes and it would be kind of cool. That is just not how it worked at all. I needed to be in my office and I needed to have all my books around me and I needed that stability of just going to the same place each day. That may not be true for everybody but I do think that you want to pay a little bit more attention than some people do to just experimenting with, where you find your groove?

I also think it really helped me in the harder days of working on the book to stay focused for who I was writing it for. Particularly those who are writing prescriptive non-fiction which I guess if this is about business books this is the genre that most of us are going to be sharing.

It really helps you stay focused on what really matters and it helps you when you’re having conversations with your publisher where your publisher might say, “No, I don’t want you to put summaries at the end of each chapter because it makes it look a bit too much like a textbook.” It gives you the confidence to say, “No, trust me, the people I’m writing for are incredibly busy and, yes, they’re buying the book and it’s wonderful but guess what? They may not actually read every word. I want them to be able to get the wisdom by just turning to the summary if that really is all they’ve got time to do.”

It gave me more confidence to have those slightly, not tough conversations, because they were lovely, but it gave me the confidence to be clear on what I was trying to achieve at moments of choice and moments of thinking, “Oh my God. What have I bitten off here? This is ridiculous.”

Alison Jones:                        Did you have one person in your mind as you were writing or just the general type of person?

Caroline Webb:                  Actually, it’s a good question. I had another Post-It note, of course, with three of my client’s names written on it. I had, “This is for Niall and Peter and Sarah.” That’s all I had written on it and I had it in front of me for most of the time I was writing the book. Yeah, it really helped. It really helped me to stay focus on the real person.

Alison Jones:                        That’s brilliant. Did they know you were writing it for them?

Caroline Webb:                  Niall and Peter are in the book and Sarah is mention in passing. Kind of yes, but no, they didn’t know I was using them as a motivational tool, but they may know now if they listen to this podcast.

Alison Jones:                        I’m sure they’re delighted.

Caroline Webb:                  My clients were so, so supportive and so willing to share their stories and so willing to open up about the things that have been hard for them that they felt as if they were always present really as I was writing. Not just those three but all of them really.

Alison Jones:                        Yeah, wonderful. I love that. Now I always ask my guests to recommend someone else as a guest onto the show, someone with something interesting to say about the business of business books. Who would you recommend I ask and why?

Caroline Webb:                  Well, I think that it might be interesting for you to talk to Antony Mayfield. This is because he is thinking about content for businesses in a slightly different way. This might be a bit radical as an interviewee but actually he is the Antony in part two of the book.

Alison Jones:                        Ah, okay. I was like, “I don’t know Antony.” Go on.

Caroline Webb:                  He’s the guy that runs Brilliant Noise along with a couple of colleagues. He was one of the first people who said to me … It’s interesting. He’s written at least one book and I think possibly two. In fact, it was him who first gave me a book proposal so that I could see what a book proposal looked like.

He’s been thinking quite a bit recently about what are different ways to get content to businesses that don’t look like conventional books but that disaggregate or unbundle a little the idea of the conventional book. I know a lot of publishers are thinking about what those formats might be. I think he would be an interesting person to talk to about that.

Alison Jones:                        That sounds absolutely fascinating. What a great recommendation. Thank you. If people want to find out more about you, Caroline, more about How To Have a Good Day, where do they need to go?

Caroline Webb:                  Thank you. My website is probably the best place it’s Caroline Webb dot co. There are a bunch of goodies. You can sign up for my newsletter and get a free chapter of the book. You can take the quiz which gives you some immediate pointers. One from each chapter of the book. You can see all of the articles that I’ve written over the past few years about topics related to what’s in the book but also more bite-sized chunks. Yeah, I continue to write and to love writing. I think the book has really put this squarely at the centre of my life and you’ll see that reflected on the website for sure.

Alison Jones:                        Fantastic. We’ll put the Caroline Webb dot co, just dot co, everybody … I’ll put that link up on the show notes as well so people can click straight through.

Caroline Webb:                  Lovely.

Alison Jones:                        It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you today, Caroline. You’ve made me have a very good day so thank you.

Caroline Webb:                  Thank you. That’s all I care about so that’s wonderful.

Alison Jones:                        I’m sure you’ve given a good day to an awful lot of listeners too. Thank you so much for your time.

Caroline Webb:                  You’re very welcome.


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