Episode 457 – The Work We Need with Hilary Cottam

What does a good working life look like in the 21st century?

Dr Hilary Cottam, OBE has spent the last five years exploring this question through collaborative workshops she calls ‘imagininings’, involving all sectors of the post-industrial workforce from gravediggers to consultants.

The same resonant themes kept emerging: the need for work that pays the basics, offers meaning, allows space for caring and play, is tied to place, and demands collective, not just individual, change.

She discovered that the challenges we face – technological disruption, ecological crisis and a lack of social justice – together provide the springboard for this change. And in the process of putting it all together into her new book, The Work We Need, she also discovered that writing, like change-making, is a slow, humbling process best done in community. 

Profound, challenging, generous, inspiring – and very much worth your listen. 

AUDIO

VIDEO

Hilary’s site: https://www.hilarycottam.com/

Hilary on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilary-cottam-1a6242160/

Alison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/the-alison-jones/

The 10-day Business Book Proposal Challenge: www.proposalchallenge.com

The Extraordinary Business Book Club on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1447064765612358/

Practical Inspiration Publishing YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@piptalking

Mend, Tend and Change the Future event: https://brilliantthing.co.uk/2025event/

Alison Jones: I’m here today with Dr. Hilary Cottam, OBE, who is a social entrepreneur, thinker and policy advisor. Her work includes the creation of new approaches and services for aging, family, life, work and care. And her first book, Radical Help, is widely accredited with shifting narratives and practice around welfare systems across Europe.

Her current research and practice centers on the future of urban and rural work and on new care economies and her new book, The Work We Need.

I wonder if you could perhaps just fling that up so that anybody watching, isn’t that fabulous, we want to talk about that cover later. Her new book, The Work We Need, challenges us to think differently about work and place-based economic policy.

So first of all, thanks very much for being with me, Hilary. It’s lovely to meet you.

Hilary Cottam: Oh, Alison, it’s so nice to be with you. Thank you so much for having me to talk about the book.

Alison Jones: Now I just want to talk about the cover because you just gave me such an interesting sort of insight into that. But let’s talk about the book first. Where does it come from?

Hilary Cottam: So the book, I didn’t intend to write a book. The book comes out of a series of journeys I’ve made over the last five years to post-industrial places in Britain. Not only, I mean I’ve also worked in London and across the US journeying from East to West talking to workers, I wanted to ask people who work in all walks of life, what should a good working life look like in this century and how should we get there?

And the reason I wrote the book, we can talk about why I did that and what I learned. But the reason I wrote the book was because I heard the same stories come out again and again from people in all walks of life, in sort of global consulting offices in London, grave diggers in Kilmarnock. And I thought these stories are really interesting and they’re not the stories that we are hearing about work normally.

Alison Jones: And that I think is a really crucial point, something I really wanted to ask you about is that when we read books on the future of work and how, you know, the economic situation in the country, there’s a very particular set of voices we hear from. They are policy makers, they’re economists, they are business leaders.

You have talked to those people, but you haven’t just talked to those people. Tell me a little bit about the thinking behind that and also the practice of it. How’d you go about talking to the grave diggers in Kilmarnock?

Hilary Cottam: Well, there’s such a, you know, there’s a lot in that. I mean, I think the thing is, is that I originally studied history. I’m very interested in technology revolutions and how they move. And one thing we see in technology revolutions normally is that you have this sort of constraining period where things become very difficult, that sort of exploitive practices of work deepen. It’s a period of populism, unrest. I mean, everything we’re seeing at the moment.

But then something else breaks through. And we usually have a work revolution, which is extremely beneficial for kind of economic productivity, but also for workers. And one of the things I’m interested in is why is that not happening now? Why do we have stories of doom and why have we become so romantic about 20th century work? Which… actually it was only good for kind of white male workers who were unionized.

And so, I first of all asked people who represent places where there is no longer good work, what they thought we should do, and they kind of put their heads in their hands and were like, oh, Hilary, don’t ask me. Don’t ask me.

And so I thought, well, I’ll go and ask workers themselves. So, I’ve kind of worked in a reverse order in that I’ve spent all this time running what I call imaginings with people from all walks of life. Always, you know, group of grave diggers, a group of carers, a group of architects, people from the same walk of life together.

And then when the themes came through, I went back to talk to labour economists, to policy makers, and I went back to the data as well, because I think one of the really interesting things in the book is that there’s so much data to support what people want to do, and yet we don’t listen to it.

Alison Jones: Give, I mean, you can’t do the whole book I know in like two minutes, but you don’t just leave us there going, these are the issues. You point the way forward. So, just if you like for people who haven’t yet read the book, give us a taste of, because it’s so doable. That’s the thing that really struck me.

Hilary Cottam: Yes, exactly. I mean, I think that’s really important. It’s doable for workers. It’s better for business, you know, it’s good for the economy.

So, essentially the book has six themes, which are the kind of strong ideas that came through, and everybody everywhere agreed that a good working life has sort of six core things, which is that you have to have the basics.

You absolutely have to be able to live off what you earn and support a family, which is far from given in well, definitely in the UK and not in the US. You have to have work with meaning, which is quite complicated. We could talk about what work with meaning really is.

Alison Jones: And not just the purpose of the organization, the meaning for the… yes.

Hilary Cottam: People have very interesting and radical ideas about how to reorganize time. That’s partly to make space for caring, to make space for play. And then a very strong theme about place that good work happens in place. Good places have kind of new forms of generative economy and how workers and businesses could come together to create that. And then in the final part of the book, I look about how we all have a role in making this happen.

Because I think another thing, sort of back to your former question, lots of books about work, lots of individual advice. You know, I mean, after all the kind of life work balance, work-life balance, that’s the kind of whole mega industry in and of itself. And I think that one of the things I’ve heard and that we all feel is this sort of exhaustion with having to kind of negotiate our own tactic. And maybe kind of get to work from home or get to kind of, you know, do something.

But what people are looking for is a collective change. Not having to negotiate as an individual or within a firm, but kind of new guardrails, if you like, about what it is to have good work.

Alison Jones: And that really struck me because so much of the discourse around the future of work has been linked to technology and particularly the sort of, you know, the new borderless office and working from home and so on, but the way that you bring in social justice which makes all kinds of sense when you know you’re talking to workers as well, but also the ecological crisis, which I think… it’s extraordinary that that hasn’t been part of this discourse particularly, until now.

Hilary Cottam: I think so too. I mean, yes, the book is framed that there are these three big forces, technology, ecology, and a kind of demand for justice, particularly from younger workers, but not only from younger workers, which is also very interesting in the book, I think, or in the conversations that I had with people.

But I think ecology, for me, it’s ecology, not technology, that if we are serious about reaching net zero in the next 10 years, 70% of us need to change what we do. So despite all the talk about ai, the thing that is actually much nearer for kind of human survival and flourishing is our ecological crisis. And that we actually have no policies, we have no transition policies from how to get from A to B, how to kind of move out of high carbon work.

I mean, every now and again, this issue pops up. In the north of England, if we’re not going to kind of, you know, dig for oil in Aberdeen, what’s going to happen to those workers? So again, it happens on an individual case by case basis, but it doesn’t happen at a kind of social level. And so the book looks at that really. Partly because what’s really clear is that if we embrace this crisis, it’s a kind of opening for the kind of work that everybody wants to do, and it’s an opening for a life with care and play, all the things we’re actually searching for.

Alison Jones: Yes and that framing of it is actually, there’s opportunity, that this is, there’s such upside here. Yes. it is really, really powerful.

I want to talk a little bit about how you go about, because I think this, you know, people listening are many of them will be writing themselves. That process of …

Hilary Cottam: …solidarity to the writers.

Alison Jones: I know, we’re here for you. Don’t worry people, I’m about to ask the real questions you want to hear.

The imaginings, the workshops that you do, how do you, so in a sense, you’ve sort of described how you always… like grounded theory, isn’t it? You pull out the themes and then you explore those, you know, upwards.

But what does that actually look like with tools and systems and organizing your thoughts?

Hilary Cottam: So, I mean, what this book looked like was me with a rucksack on my back with some kind of visual tools in the back of it and rocking up to a place for a week or so at a time and saying can you sort of introduce me to your workers? So that’s partly, I mean, there’s a whole strand of this where I’ve worked with business leaders as well.

But because sort of for the last 20 years, as you said, I’ve been working on reform of the welfare state. I’ve got very good relationships with local government in all sorts of places. So I would usually go to local government and say, you know, I want to run, you know, 20, I want to meet 200 of your workers in different walks of life in this town.

Can you ask business leaders or whoever to kind of organize for me these groups of workers? And people did, that’s how it worked. Actually what happened was that I agreed to give my time for free in exchange. So it was a kind of really nice project because all these local authorities, on the back of the last book, want me to help them, and I don’t have the bandwidth really for that.

So I said, if you help me organize workshops, I’ll come and live alongside you and you can use me at the same time in any way you want. Which was actually very beautiful work for me but that’s another whole podcast. But that was very, very nice.

Alison Jones: But it’s a lovely illustration of the economic system isn’t it?

Hilary Cottam: Yes, I suppose so. So then I had three hours at a time with workers.

So, originally I started off with four groups of workers. I wanted to work with gig workers. I wanted to work with low paid workers. I wanted to work with sort of formal manufacturing, and then I wanted to work with people in technology. But actually those categories didn’t hold. And also what happened was that when people heard about the workshops, they were like, oh, but you haven’t talked to us. Could we also have a workshop? So I kind of, the whole thing snowballed and also the categories didn’t hold.

But what was important to me was that I really have run the gamut of kind of all walks of life. I’m not sure if there’s anybody missing. There probably is. But I have kind of run the gamut and heard the same things.

And so then what I would do in the first half, I would give people 72 playing cards with these words and images on them and blank cards and ask people in groups of four to think just as an imagination stimulus, to have a conversation about the elements of a good working life.

And then I would put a tape recorder on the table and let it run. And then in the second half I give people a paper tablecloth and I say to them, now design me an organization that could make that happen. People generally giggle rather nervously, because lots of people have had that kind of thing, you know, being able to design, but most people I work with haven’t, and every time a design emerges, and of course one of the themes in the book is that there’s a sort of code every time the same kind of organization emerges.

And again, there’s nothing else, I just let the tape recorder run and then I end up with hours and hours and hours because one thing I found is there’s no AI that can distinguish four voices around a table.

And also actually, I mean, you know, I started in Kilmarnock and there’s no AI that can decipher a Kilmarnock accent for me so that, you know, I mean talking about myths of tech, I’m very interested in technology and the book is grounded in the idea of history of technology revolutions, but you know, there’s so much sort of rubbish and mythology spoken.

And one thing is we haven’t even got a piece of AI that can transcribe my conversations, I think is really interesting.

Alison Jones: Yes. Well, I feel your pain. My husband’s from the Western Isles, the Outer Hebrides, and we have..

Hilary Cottam: Oh, lucky you. Lucky you. That’s like my dream is to live there, but yes, lucky you.

Alison Jones: But yes, Siri doesn’t understand him at all. It’s very funny.

And then having got all that, having sort of plowed through, surface those themes, how did you organize them into the structure of the book?

Hilary Cottam: So I think obviously then what I do is I just spend hours on my own listening to the conversations and transcribing the conversations. And I think the themes of the book, they’re like a drumbeat or a melody, is that the more I listened, the more I was astonished at the same themes coming out. And so some, you know, above the kind of hubbub and the teasing and everything else, these very, very strong themes happen.

And you know, for instance with the cards, it’s not sort of really so much what people do with the cards, it’s that they stimulate a conversation. So the example in the book is in the very first workshop in Kilmarnock, when I was working with grave diggers. This grave digger Johnny got up and he said that he had had enough of a linear life and he started to draw on the tablecloth, this completely different way of reorganizing time.

And gradually more and more people joined in and I was quite, I was sort of transfixed. I mean it was really interesting and extraordinary. And then, you know, sort of three years of pandemic later, I’m in a boardroom in London and some young consultants get to their feet and they say exactly the same.

Like, you know, that we need to redesign the linear life because there is no income that we can earn in this place, making partner, and… none of these things are enough for the sacrifices we’re making in the way we’ve got to live our lives. And so I think when you hear these same things come again and again, that was the sort of organization principle really.

Alison Jones: Yes, I’m so envious. I just, I want to be in one of those workshops. It sounds amazing, and it’s such an interesting…

Hilary Cottam: I should do one for writers. I don’t think I had one for writers.

Alison Jones: Publishers, but that what’s really interesting as well is this sort of mix of sense making sort of communally, that group dynamic.

Hilary Cottam: Oh, it’s so important you say this because I think that this is not a focus group. What happens in that group dynamic is that people create things. So they say things that they haven’t thought of, they correct each other, they have ideas. They throw those ideas out. They build on ideas. So I don’t think it’s the case that people come to the imaginings with an idea of: work is this.

What happens is that something grows in that process and that’s really critical to the methodology. It’s a creative… it’s not a mining of what’s already there and taking it away. And by the way, people are paid to participate. I think that’s really important. But yes, it’s generative.

Alison Jones: And that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because often when we think about research for business books, we think about interviewing people one-to-one to find out what they know. And actually it’s a co-creative thing, or it can be a co-creative thing. It can be done in communities.

That’s really interesting.

Hilary Cottam: And I think one of the themes in all my work is, you know, when you interview people, people say what they, even in this kind of conversation, we tell each other what we want to hear. You know, I want to tell you something I think is interesting for your kind of podcast audience, and that’s the same, you know, so especially if you’re doing social research, you’ve got to get underneath that, because you want to hear the things that people don’t really want to tell you in the ways that they might feel embarrassed to tell you. And that’s the sort of real stuff with which you can create a new future.

Alison Jones: Oh, that’s golden, isn’t it?

So, and I think that’s really important if you are doing research, you know, don’t… by all means, have your questions and have your hypothesis and all the rest of it, but leave space and leave opportunity and really, you know, try and draw out the stuff that you don’t know you don’t know, or the stuff that they don’t particularly want to tell you, that’s actually where the gold is. That’s so interesting.

But then you have to take all that and all that energy and you have to work alone at some point to write that down. Tell me what that looks like for you. What do you love about it? What do you find frustrating?

Hilary Cottam: So I find writing really hard. I’m very, very slow. And I think that the other thing is that you know, writing this book about work was really difficult because I want, it’s a book, I hope it’s a very readable book, and it’s a book…

Alison Jones: …it’s a very readable book.

Hilary Cottam: Thank you. And it’s a book, it’s a book for everybody. You know, I think that everybody who participated should be able to read it, and so of course then to kind of get back into the nitty gritty of how we could shift work and still make that accessible is a kind of difficult craft.

I mean, how it looks practically is that, until very recently, in fact at the end of the book, I gave it up, I think I’d had enough. But I’ve had a very small studio in a car park in Peckham where I kind of organize my materials, I do my designing, but also I kind of go there and write. And for me it’s just a discipline, you know, it is a sort of nine to five. I go there and I write.

I love, I really love, the sort of intellectual part of it, of working out the ideas. I mean, I sort of write to think, so the very early writing feels very liberating because the ideas come together sort of at the end, kind of, you know, presenting these ideas in a way that is kind of accessible beyond my brain.

 That’s the sort of, that’s the more tricky part of it, if you like. And then I think also organizing how the material can work. That’s always, you know, obviously the book had lots of different plans of how it might have worked before it kind of resolved in this structure.

Alison Jones: Yes, which of course has a sense of inevitability once it’s there, but it doesn’t feel inevitable while you’re trying to…

Hilary Cottam: ….absolutely. Yes,

Alison Jones: …forge it. I know.

And that’s really interesting. I remember talking to Cathy Rentzenbrink, who had a theory about sort of before reader and after reader, which sounds like a little bit like what you, you sort of write for yourself, what the hell have I got here and how I, and then you’re like, okay, now I know what I’m saying I’m going to write it for the reader.

Hilary Cottam: Yes. Exactly.

Alison Jones: Yes, so interesting. I want to ask you about your tips and so on, but before I do that, you gave me a little intriguing comment about the cover just before we came on air.

Tell us about the cover of the book.

Hilary Cottam: Yes, so I, next door to, in fact, it feeds because next door to my studio in Peckham was this beautiful poster that said hard labour. And I worked under this poster that said hard labour. I wanted a copy. There weren’t any left the whole time I was doing the project. So whilst I was going out to do the workshops and traveling and also then kind of sitting there alone.

And I should say that, you know, I like a certain amount of aloneness. It’s nice, a certain amount, but then generally a book is a long project. So I’ve definitely had enough of the aloneness. So I sat under this hard labour poster and then I went into the studio, kind of on another floor where these artists were. And everybody should have a look. They’re called Intoart and Trifle Studio.

And basically what they do is they have artists who have usually quite severe learning disabilities and take on commercial projects through the studio. So I met the graphic artist Andre Williams, who had done this hard labour poster and I said, would you design my cover for me? And he said yes. And luckily the publisher paid, because often they want to use their in-house designers. So it’s a really… and actually the book is called The Work We Need, but he made it in two parts. So he sent it back saying We Need The Work, which was also very poignant.

But obviously he’s a brilliant graphic artist and he’s made me a beautiful cover and I think it has kind of generated good work. So I think it’s a sort of nice, holistic story about the book.

Alison Jones: And so much of what you’ve told me is about you walking the talk, which is really interesting as well. The medium really is the message, isn’t it?

Hilary Cottam: I hope so. Yes.

Alison Jones: Yes.

Hilary Cottam: I also think, you know, people share their stories with me, so I’ve got a certain, what’s the word? You know, I have to kind of, I have to try and share them again as honourably as I can, I suppose. Yes.

Alison Jones: Yes. That’s a great point. As a writer, you’re sort of, and when people are talking to you and they’re sharing their ideas, when they’re coming up with ideas they didn’t even know they had, there’s a sort of moral obligation on you to honour that, to communicate it.

Hilary Cottam: Yes and in this book it’s really complicated, so everybody gave me permission. I said that I would never use their real names, but they gave me permission to use their stories. I didn’t know what I would do with them, but I just wanted in the moment to get that permission. And then obviously with some people I’ve gone back to them and talked to them again.

You know, some of the people in the book, like Laura the welder at BAE, I’ve gone back and so then once, you know, once I built real relationships with people, with some people, I said, do you want to be named? And in the case of Laura, she said, yes, I’ve read your first book. I would love to be a person in your book, so please name me.

But also thinking, you know, I work with illegal construction workers in Detroit and thinking about how I really carefully disguise who they are, especially in this political moment. So there’s a lot of that thinking as well that has to go into the writing.

Alison Jones: Yes. The care taking of the people.

Hilary Cottam: And then some companies made me sign, you know, in Silicon Valley for example, I signed some quite extraordinary NDAs, which means that I’m quite limited about what I can say and you know, do with that material.

It informed my wider thinking, but I can’t say I went to those places, which is also quite interesting given that they claim to be creative places themselves. But maybe that’s again, another conversation.

Alison Jones: That’s a lovely example of not walking the talk. Brilliant.

Now, I always ask my guests, Hilary, for their best tip, for somebody writing their first book. And, as you know, we are the Extraordinary Business Book Club podcast, but I have a very catholic sense of what business might mean in this sense. So, if somebody’s just starting out on this journey, what one tip would you give them?

Hilary Cottam: Well, I mean, as I say, I find it hard. I think in my case, what I did was, I’m actually a fiction reader. I almost only read fiction. So when I set out to, with my first book, to write nonfiction books, I never read those kinds of books. So really the first thing I did was I just bought, borrowed, secondhand, you know, books and books and books of people who had written the kind of book that I wanted to write.

And I just kept reading, kept looking, and I sort of, so I read them in a completely different way. Like, how did the person weave this together? What kind of language are they using? Why am I actually interested in this? because often I was reading nonfiction books about things I wasn’t interested in just for the craft.

So I think it’s just reading, reading, reading.

Alison Jones: But not just reading. Reading like a writer.

Hilary Cottam: Yes, exactly. Think of yourself as a writer. You’ve got to sort of be a writer in some way. And then, yes, read as a writer. I just think it’s critical.

Alison Jones: Yes. And it is a craft. And I think, you know, often with nonfiction, particularly with business books, people think that all they’re doing is communicating ideas. And there’s a sort of transparency about the language. No language is transparent. You’re always making choices about what words you’re using, what imagery you’re using, what you’re prioritizing, the stories you’re telling.

All of that is craft.

Hilary Cottam: And I think especially if you are a person in business, because I mean, in my case, the last, before I wrote my first book, the last big piece of work I’d done ages before was my PhD. And so doing a PhD actually teaches you how not to write. I mean, PhDs are so impenetrable to

Alison Jones: How to obfuscate your ideas.

Hilary Cottam: I really, really had to consciously unlearn a way of writing that I had, which was a kind of mix of PhD and the kind of report writing that will help me get money out of people to do my projects. None of that is any good for writing a book that people want to read. So it’s like was a very conscious unlearning and relearning and then just a lot of hours of practice.

And I still think I’m in the foothills. You know, I mean, that is one thing I like. I probably don’t want to write a third book because I find it so hard.

But I definitely think, you know, I really enjoy the idea that I’m making something, it’s a craft and I’m getting better at it all the time.

Alison Jones: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I’ll have you back on for the third book. No, don’t worry about that.

Hilary Cottam: I don’t think.

Alison Jones: And I also always ask for recommendation. It doesn’t have to be a business book. You’ll be glad to hear. So, you know, we are here for fiction as well, but if somebody’s listening and they think Hilary Cottam sounds like she knows a few things, I’d be interested in her recommendation for a book to read.

What would you say?

Hilary Cottam: Oh, well, I’m going to recommend a business book actually, which is not a new one. Maybe lots of people recommend it on your podcast, but I’m going to recommend Herminia Ibarra Working Identity, which I think is just an incredible book. It is so well written. It’s so accessible. It’s a book that I’ve returned to as I kind of reshape different projects again and again for my own working identity.

But I also think it’s interesting in this context about how do I think of myself as a working person, also as a writing person, and how it is all about sort of immersing yourself in practice. You know, you have to actually do it, don’t you? You have to take that first leap, try it out. And so for me, I think that’s just an exceptional book.

Alison Jones: It is and beautifully written as well, but I also, I love how pragmatic she is as well. It’s like, it’s not so much about theory, it’s just that actually if you do these things, then you will become this leader. And I really like that approach.

Hilary Cottam: I mean, it’s completely usable. A book I’ve just finished that I’d also recommend is Orbital the Booker Prize winner.

Alison Jones: I haven’t read that.

Hilary Cottam: Oh, by Samantha Harvey. It’s brilliant. So that’s a, you know, again, that’s quite interesting because what she did was during the pandemic, she watched hours and hours and hours of NASA footage and she’s used that real footage and that observation to write a fictional novel, imagining herself in orbit, it’s extraordinary.

But in a way that is still our craft of what we’re talking about, isn’t it? To sort of imagine our way in so that we can convey a story that feels real and compelling.

Alison Jones: Yes, and it also really captures its moment in time because it just, I mean, I haven’t read the book yet, but I know enough about it to know that it’s got that almost slightly claustrophobic, very small scope of action, and yet everything happens in it.

Hilary Cottam: I know and it’s such a short book, but it’s so rich. You can only read a bit at a time. It’s very, again, it’s very readable, but it’s really an extraordinary book. It can be on everybody’s summer reading list, it’s just brilliant.

Alison Jones: Yes. Well that’s it, it’s been on the to be read pile for ages. I’m going to get it off there and get it actually read.

What a treat to talk to you, Hilary. If people want to find out more about you, more about the extraordinary work you do, more about your books, where should they go?

I know, isn’t that gorgeous? Sorry, if you’re not looking, if you’re listening to this. I’m sorry. Where should they go?

Hilary Cottam: So The Work We Need, you can buy it on Amazon. You can even better still walk into your local bookshop and…

Alison Jones: …do that…

Hilary Cottam: …if they don’t have it. Order two copies, give one to a friend. One of the things about this book is that I think we need to reclaim an identity as a worker. We’ve sort of made that a very residual category, worker is somebody you know, a bit doing a lowly job these days.

But actually what’s so important is that we all share the same dreams and that we need to kind of ally ourselves with each other to kind of make that good working life a reality.

So yes, buy a book, buy one for another worker, and thank you.

Alison Jones: And is there an online space that tells people about what you do as well?

Hilary Cottam: Yes, I have a website, www.hilarycottam.com.

And so that generally, I’m not brilliant because I’m usually running around kind of doing the actual work, but I do put on there what I’m doing.

I’m on Instagram, I’m on Twitter, so I kind of, you know, when I’m doing some talks, I’m doing two Central London talks next week, they’re both free, if people want to come along. So yes, generally those are the places where you can find where I am.

Alison Jones: Brilliant. I’ll put those links up on the show notes at extraordinarybusinessbooks.com. What a treat to talk to you. Congratulations on the book.

Hilary Cottam: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.